IHDP - Focus on R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) and NW IMH

The brief genealogical and historical data presented here, is not a case of "making the shoe fit", a lot of these surnames can get confused/lost in translation with other more common variants. R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) is potentially an exciting means of separating these genealogical threads. For instance, take the surname Murphy, ususally located in the SE of Ireland is also found elsewhere, similarly Carroll, to name but two. IHDP would urge all R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) members to look at the historical and genealogical evidence BEFORE they consult the DNA aspects.

The following demonstrates how genetic genealogy and historical genealogy can be used to locate a persons origin or indicate a possibility. This is not a scientific exercise but based on the accumulation of circumstantial eveidence.

Do note that the Ui Neill where ultimately split into two groups, the Northern Ui Neill and the Southern Ui Neill, the area of the southern Ui Neill is very difficult to define as is most Irish kingdoms as they tended to expand and contract. The area controlled by the Southern Ui Neill tend to be in the areas Meath, Westmeath, Cavan and parts of Monaghan.

The following outlines the level of investigation that is required in placing an R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) result to possibly a Northwest of Ireland geographic location:

The genealogist MacLysaght indicates Denny/Denney comes from Cork/Kerry, from the surname "Ó Duineachdha" or "Ó Duibhne". However Woulfe uses a broader brush, while indicating and acknowledging the Cork surname he also indicates it comes from the common medieval Irish first name, Donnchadh (Denis, Dermot etc).

Demographics, based on Matheson's distribution of surname births for Ireland in 1890 and the 1860 Griffiths head of household Index distributions - both these broadly concur with the genealogists. That there are clearly two distinct large groups, one in Cork/Kerry and the other Tyrone/Donegal as follows:

Antrim 1, Armagh 5, Cork 6, Cork city 3, Derry 4, Donegal 19, Down 5, Dublin 2, Dublin city 3, Fermanagh 1, Kerry 29, Kildare 3, Kilkenny 1 Tipperary 5, Tyrone 11, Waterford 7,Wexford 1

The only conclusion from this cursory demographic exercise is that, the bearer of Kit number 78681, despite the surname history, anciently came from the North West of Ireland. But without Genetics this ancient origin would be masked. This is not saying all Denney's are from the Northwest, just this person's ancient origins are. For Kit 78681 this is important personal information, for a Denney surname project you have a clear genetic result and this should indicate to an surname project administrator that Denney will have more than one branch.

Note: The interest in R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) is intense, and it is hoped that the scientific/statistical dilligence is matched by a similar search for accuracy in terms of the historical and genealogical aspects of the location of all associated R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) surnames. R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) is a really powerful indicator of ones origins and is a very useful guide to your deep ancestry.

Please note this listing is to only suggest that a member displayed here is from the location suggested (outside the recorded time period). All the date shows is that the surname exists in the NW of Ireland, this is not to suggest that the members ( R1b1b2e (R1b1c7)) here are from the area.

Median Joining (MJ) networks of R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) y-Chromosomes

A rather haphazard representation of the R1b1b2e (R1b1c7) membership - based on membership as of August 07 , with the Niall Haplotype at the centre. Note a single yellow dot indicates one haplotype. The Modal yellow dot contains five including Niall.

Scientific Data and Links

Trinity's Data, Molecular Population Genetics TCD website - McEvoy B, Richards M, Forster P, Bradley DG. The Longue Duree of genetic ancestry: multiple genetic marker systems and Celtic origins on the Atlantic facade of Europe.http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php

The Trinity Presentation of the "Y-Chromosome Signiture of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland" - the official report of the as submitted to www.ajhg.org. Simply Right Click on the link and Save As "gael.pdf", report in Acrobat PDF format.

For some useful "observations on the Trinity Study": Wilson's Observations on Trinity's IMH Findings

R1b1 Sub-Clade Tables with SNP Values

R1b1c7 is a sub-clade or a sub-group of R1b1b2, the vast majority of Irish R1b are generally regarded as +M269 (R1b1b2). If you look at the table below it explains in a graphical way the relationships of all R1b classifications.

R1b1b2e - was originally R1b1c7

Graphical Presentation of FTDNA Niall Markers

The table below shows the Trinity DYS Markers tested, arranged as they appear in typical FTDNA order, members can check their results against those below.

Some Questions?

How did FTDNA arrive at 37 markers if the Trinity Research only contains 13 or so of the standard 37 markers? - FTDNA used a predictive process based on their large Database. In otherwords the missing markers were "filled" by a straightforward process which is commonly used to create Modal types..

If I have an exact match to the markers of Niall of the Nine Hostages what does that mean? Basically NOT that you are related to this potentially fictional character but that you have a Haplotype called R1b1c7 or the Northwest Irish Modal Haplotype. If the scientific data holds up, a large percentage of the surnames and dynasties associated with the Cineill Eoghain and Cineil Coneill, to name just two of the many "tribes of the Connachta", should have higher precentages of this Haplotype.

Issued by IHDP - Austin Rock