Child Care Services: Motion 22nd November, 2000 Miss Quill: I move: That Seanad Éireann recognises the need to cherish all the children of the nation equally, the need to provide adequate child care facilities appropriate to the requirements of a modern prosperous society and supports an increase in child benefit as the best and fairest way to address this issue. In welcoming the Minister of State I acknowledge what she has done for the advancement of child care since her appointment. It is refreshing to discuss this fundamental issue this evening. It seemed for part of the day as if the "T and T" agenda, taxis and trains, would take hold of all our energies. It is good to discuss an issue that is of such fundamental importance to society and one that will have to be confronted long after those other issues have been put to bed. The issue of the critical state of child care and the issue of child poverty haunt us. It is almost unthinkable that in the 21st century we have such a high incidence of child poverty. Independent research confirms that about a quarter of all children in society experience some level of poverty and that 17% experience chronic poverty. They are the children who have poor school attendance, poor educational attainment, poor qualifications, if any, low participation in cultural or sporting activities and whose prospects for the future are poor. If that poverty is not tackled and arrested the danger is that it will continue into the next generation and will become cyclical in nature. It is critically important to seek to address and arrest the poverty. The issue of child care was debated fully in the House last January. One may ask why we are coming back to the issue again so soon. We are doing so for two reasons. First, even though efforts had been made, much remains to be done and, second, because we are on the threshold of a budget. The budget gives us the opportunity to address the financial elements of child care and to make financial provision for families with children. That said, I acknowledge that money on its own does not solve the problem, but unless it is there the problem will never be solved. The Progressive Democrats ask that the level of child benefit be increased substantially to the level of £100 for all children. That is a bold objective but we have the money to enable us to do that. We may not have the mechanisms in place to tackle all the requirements of child care or all the detail of child poverty but, at least, we have money to enable us to pay level of child benefit. That needs to be done now. Such an increase would be an effective way to deal with the growing cost of child care. This Government has had an objective of increasing old age pensions to £100. I believe that objective will be met in the forthcoming budget. That is the decent and good thing to do. A civilised society has to look at its primary care and how it looks after the old and the young. I believe the £100 for the elderly will be attained in the budget. I put to the Minister an objective that the £100 level be reached very soon for child benefit. There should be no argument from any quarter against a large increase in the rate of child benefit. It currently stands at £42.50 a month per child and £56 for the third child. A ground-breaking increase to £100 a month would be of huge benefit for hundreds of thousands of Irish families. Progress towards the target of £100 should start in the forthcoming budget. The Government should deliver a real and substantial increase in child benefit so that this target can be reached as soon as possible. Child benefit is the fairest way to deliver health to all families with children rather than special child care tax breaks. This is because child benefit is paid to all families in equal value. A tax break is of no benefit to families on social welfare or to those working families whose incomes are too low to be taxable and is of only limited value to families on low incomes who have low thresholds. This must be made available to all families. Following last year's budget, the issue that haunted us of making provision for families whose mothers go out to work as opposed to families whose mothers stay at home must be addressed. We must put a value on the work done by women who choose to remain at home to raise their children. We must also recognise that in the public service in particular an increasing number of women opt to take career breaks and forgo their income for three or five years to give their children a start, and many women now opt for job-sharing. That is a very healthy development. Women who take a career break for three or five years ought to be encouraged, not penalised. Equally women who choose to take up job-sharing ought to be encouraged, not penalised. If we do not seek to give mothers in that position the same benefits as mothers who go out to work, we are perpetuating an injustice which should not be allowed to happen. We should provide child benefit to all the children of the nation right across the board. We must improve on the supply side, which is very complex. When the Childcare Act came into force, which was timely, the immediate effect was a reduction in the number of child care places. This was the inevitable result of putting in place standards. These standards are valid and must be upheld but we must consider ways and means of adding to the supply. I am particularly pleased with the provision of the after school initiative, which is important. Due to the demography which is developing, there is and will be spare classroom capacity in a number of primary schools. We should seek to use this to the ultimate by making provision for child care. In addition, we should enlist the support of local authorities. From now on the housing of people should not just relate to the builders' agenda or the putting up of bricks and mortar, housing estates should be designed to be neighbourhoods. That ought to involve in the construction phase a little space where crèche and child care facilities can be delivered. However, without the support of the local authorities and the health boards, no matter how well intentioned the Government is, it will not be able to meet the demands of child care on the supply side. It is disappointing that there has not been a greater take-up on the child care tax incentives to employers. There is probably a cultural lag in the mindset of employers in this regard. Employers do not seem to recognise the value of making provision for the child care needs of their employees as a worthwhile investment in their enterprise. Multinationals are much better in this regard because it is part of the culture they bring from their countries of origin. They are much better at making crèche and child care facilities available for their workforce. It is about time our employers decided that this is the correct course of action to take. There is enormous scope for the proper education and training of child care workers. If child care is to make a difference to children and society in the next generation, it must be delivered to the highest attainable standards. There is great scope for improvement in relation to this aspect. No Government, no matter what money it has at its disposal, can make proper provision for child care if it cannot enlist the support of parents for whom child care and child rearing is a priority. We must look to other European countries because, for example, the time honoured institution of bedtime seems to have died in Irish society. That is fundamentally wrong. Child poverty is not just lack of money, it is young people who are not exposed to music and art, who do not have access to libraries and are not exposed to education of all their senses and faculties in the formation years. Child care is a very broad aspect and we must work hard not just to provide the money, but to change the culture to ensure it becomes a priority in the 21st century. Mr. T. Fitzgerald: I second the motion. Mrs. Ridge: I move amendment No. 1: To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following: " - condemns the Government for the high levels of child poverty in this country; - calls on the Government to take decisive action to create new child care places and replace those lost since this Government came to office; - asks the Government to take action to put National Planning Guidelines in place immediately in relation to the development of child care facilities; and to initiate an after school service and to set effective targets to eliminate child poverty."

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and congratulate her on being active and caring. Equally, it is always a pleasure to listen to Senator Quill who outlines her points in such an erudite manner. The motion is a response to the concerns that exist and not a criticism of anyone in particular. We all agree that the changes which came about as a result of the provision of fire safety regulations means the closure of many informal child care facilities which were providing a good service. I appreciate that health and safety is a major issue in relation to the provision of child care. However, I believe we threw the baby out with the bath water in relation to some home play groups which were safe. The loss of so many neighbourhood places is a major problem. Last year there was a general fumbling around the child care issue which did not receive priority. It is possibly only people who are currently involved with children who believe the need is so great. A major crisis in relation to child care has been building up and eventually there will be an eruption. I do not know what the fallout will be if Fianna Fáil and the PDs wish to go back into Government because when candidates knock on doors, particularly in urban areas and in new estates, they will be asked what are they doing about child care. I recall proposing the £100 allowance a month in this Chamber last year when it was voted down. This should be allowed by way of child benefit to support women who opt to care for their children at home. These women should not be discriminated against. In relation to national planning guidelines, no one anticipated the escalation in house prices which led to the requirement for two people to work without having a choice in the matter. Some child care facilities have been closed down because they did not comply with health and safety standards. We do not have an adequate number of trained child care workers. In some cases crèche owners exploited parents by taking too many children and exploited their workforce by paying them a pittance. However, these problems are capable of being tackled if we have a sense of urgency. I live in an area which is variously described as marginalised or deprived - both descriptions sound insulting. A large number of parents in my area do not have the skills to cope that many of the rest of us have inherited and, consequently, we see many children exposed to poverty at various levels. Some parents do not have the sense to realise that a seven year old should not be out until eleven o'clock at night. Bed time for some children happens when they fall asleep, often outside on the roadside. Many parents have a lack of knowledge. One still sees the children of some of our immigrants, mainly Roma gypsies, being carried at major traffic intersections in bitterly cold weather. It is said that this is part of the Roma culture. However, when one moves to a new society, while one should retain one's ethnicity one must also adapt to the culture in which one is living, earning one's livelihood or receiving social welfare payments. There is no excuse for putting a child's life at risk, as happens daily in our society. The law should be more rigorously enforced in this regard. For many years responsibility for child care was left to voluntary groups. Crèches were established, principally for widows who had young children and who had to go to work. A crèche in Meath Street in Dublin was established in 1893. I was the national chairperson of the Irish Pre-school Playgroups Association, a completely voluntary association which was started in 1969 and did not get funding until 1982. The facilities for children's development provided by voluntary organisations in the past were excellent but the need has changed since then. It is now almost impossible for a parent to stay at home to look after children full-time but the cost of some crèches is prohibitive. We are denying large numbers of children a rewarding and enjoyable experience and causing great grief. It is not pleasant to put a child into the back of a car at 6 o'clock on a winter's morning and travel up to ten miles to a crèche. When builders build large housing estates they should be obliged to provide a community building where a crèche could be located. I ask the Minister of State to bring the following matter to the attention of the Ministers of Health and Children and Education and Science. The waiting list for speech therapy at a health centre in my area is very long. A mother came to me two weeks ago to tell me that her little boy, who is aged four and has a hearing difficulty, has been waiting for a year and a half for an appointment to learn how to speak. This is the best illustration I can give of child poverty which needs to be eliminated. The proposers of the amendment will be calling for a vote on this matter because any Government which can do something to alleviate child poverty has a duty to do it. Dr. Henry: I second the amendment. I congratulate the Progressive Democrats and Senator Quill on proposing the motion. However, it lacks a sense of urgency and that is why I am seconding the amendment. Senator Quill pointed out that large numbers of women are returning to the public service. They are needed more and more and it is important that we cater for them. Senator Quill also pointed out how much better multinational companies are at dealing with the child care needs of their employees because they have had experience of the matter in other countries. Can the Minister of State tell us what has happened to the Civil Service crèche in Mount Street? How can we ask other institutions to make child care facilities available when we have this disaster on our hands? The Civil Service crèche seemed to be an extremely good one. I visited it with the Minster of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, some years ago. The crèche was in existence for almost ten years, the rates were reasonable and it was so popular that children's names had to be put down, almost at conception. I am not sure why the crèche has closed because I have had to rely on the press for information. It appears that those who were running the crèche could not charge sufficiently high fees to pay the required number of staff and the manager had to close it down. Health officials agreed that the number of workers was not sufficient. There is now an appalling hiatus. The crèche has been closed for several months. How does this look to other organisations? It looks as though we are not taking the situation seriously at all. Urgent action should have been taken to ensure that the crèche stayed open. I hope the Minister of State will be able to tell us what has happened. Child care workers are not well paid. The regulations which we have introduced stipulate a very low number of children to each worker. The ratio is, I think, three to one for babies, rising to perhaps eight to one for six year olds. The status of child care workers could be raised considerably if the issue of tax relief for child care was addressed. It seems extraordinary that one can employ someone as a driver, for example, and claim the cost against income tax while one can not claim for the cost of employing someone to look after one's child, the dearest asset in one's life. It has been argued that this would discriminate against mothers working in the home but they do not pay PRSI to stay at home and mind their children. Nothing is of such great value to children as a mother who can look after them in the home. It is a great financial sacrifice for some women to stay at home to look after their children in the early years. When these women go back into the workforce, one would like to think that better consideration with regard to pensions could be given for the years when they were doing such an important job for society and for which they were not paid. I hope that is taken into consideration because it is one of the most important discriminations against women who remain at home for a certain number of years to look after their children. They are discriminated against when it comes to drawing pensions. People who contributed nothing but who get non-contributory pensions get more money than those women who contributed for years but who took time out to raise their children, which is to our benefit and that of their children. I ask the Minister of State to bring that to the attention of the Minister for Finance.

I agree with child benefit. There is nothing better to help child poverty than to ensure that money goes into the household. It is given to the mother and this means that in the majority of cases it will be spent on her children. I know few women in poverty who do not put their children ahead of themselves. When we talk about child poverty, I worry about the poverty of their mothers as well. They are frequently at the bottom of the list in terms of the goods or services that are needed. They will usually go without. The Minister of State and I have talked in the past about the definition of homeless children and children out of home and I know we agree on it. It is a serious issue. She and Senator Fitzpatrick may have seen the results of a recent survey which showed that these children are seriously unhealthy. They are also at the lower limit of our vaccination rates. They have a low rate of immunisation against the various childhood diseases with which they come in contact. We must address this issue. I do not care if these children are called homeless children or children out of home, but they must be looked after. Senator Ridge said that it is not acceptable for some people to treat their children in the way they do. We have a responsibility to ensure they do not beg on the streets - I frequently see this happening on Molesworth Street. I compliment the voluntary organisations, particularly the Society of St. Vincent de Paul which tries to teach parenting, coping and budgetary skills. It is sad that the Rotunda Hospital and probably other maternity hospitals must have a Samaritan and infant clothing guild which raises thousands of pounds every year to aid those in this affluent society who still must rely on charity for the most vulnerable children who, as Senator Quill said, we say we cherish in the Constitution. Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Ms Hanafin): Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus táim buíoch do na Seanadóirí as an t-ábhar seo a árdú agus as gach rud a dúirt siad go dtí seo. This is an important opportunity to respond to the motion as only last week we launched our national children's strategy, "Our Children -Their Lives". Copies of the strategy have been sent to Senators and I know they will take the opportunity to study it. It represents the strongest possible demonstration to date by any Government of its commitment to Ireland's children. It is a clear statement of support to parents, local communities and to everyone who works with and for children. It is a major initiative in progressing Ireland's implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The strategy maps out a future plan which will provide a better way for us all to work together for and with children so they benefit from our economic success and enjoy a good quality of childhood experience. The strategy does this by drawing together all the different initiatives for children into a single plan of action and it gives leadership at national level for responding to the needs of children. The motion talks about cherishing all the children of the nation equally. That is also a quote in our 1916 Proclamation. The national children's strategy goes substantially further by setting out a clear and unifying vision for all children up to the age of 18. That vision is an Ireland where children are respected as young citizens with a valued contribution to make and a voice of their own, where they are cherished and supported by family and the wider society and where they enjoy a fulfilling childhood and realise their potential. This vision is only one part of a new co-ordinating framework for action outlined in the strategy, the purpose of which is to guide all our future efforts in relation to how we plan and manage the delivery of services to children. I do not propose to go into detail but I would like to briefly outline to the House some of the key aspects of the rest of that framework. The strategy identifies six operational principles to guide all future actions for children. It proposes a modern understanding of children's lives which we call the "whole child" perspective. There are three national goals for children which will be achieved over the ten years of the strategy. These involve listening to children, understanding their needs better and, most relevant to today's motion, ensuring that children will receive quality supports and services to promote all aspects of their development. I said at the launch of the strategy that it is not just aims and hopes, but a real plan which will be delivered. Our commitment to delivery will be seen in the new structures we are putting in place to make it happen, but in a way that involves everyone, from the children to the Taoiseach, who needs to be involved in implementing such a wide-ranging plan of action. The Taoiseach will chair a Cabinet committee for children and, as Minister of State with responsibility for children, I will be a voice for all children. I am determined to drive the strategy to ensure the best possible outcome for them and to ensure that the strategy and children's policy development maintains a high profile at Government level. In addition, all future Government initiatives and legislation will be child proofed so that children's interests will also be represented. Children, children's organisations, researchers and the social partners will be members of a national children's advisory council. Our intention is to ensure that our success in developing the strategy will be matched by our success in implementing it. Some of the key elements involved in giving children a voice include establishing Dáil na n-Óg and the office of a children's ombudsman. Perhaps after my experiences here today I should also think about establishing Seanad na n-Óg. There will also be a dedicated national children's office to provide a major boost to managing cross-departmental issues. Departments will still carry the main responsibility for implementing the strategy in their own areas of responsibility. However, the national children's office will be the engine to drive it forward and I, as Minister of State with responsibility for children, will be the driver. A sum of £2 million has already been announced to support the establishment of the new structures I have just described and to commence the research proposals contained in the strategy. The elimination of child homelessness is one of the first issues to be tackled. The elimination of child poverty is one of the main aims of the strategy. The most recent data from the ESRI shows that the level of consistent poverty among children is down to 12%. Our intention is to eradicate it completely. Another key objective is that children's early education and developmental needs will be met through quality child care services and family friendly employment measures. In many ways, when compared to our European neighbours, Ireland is some way behind in terms of child care provision. However, it should be noted that the child care infrastructures developed in many European states were developed during their periods of economic growth and regeneration. Child care provision was badly neglected in the past, with little or no investment by past Governments. In taking office, the Government recognised the urgent need to develop quality child care service provision and prioritised child care as a central issue on the social agenda. Economic success, along with the obvious benefits, presented new challenges and increased labour force participation by women, particularly mothers of young children, and a diminishing supply of child care places were recognised by the Government as issues requiring immediate action. Lack of child care facilities is seen as a major impediment to parents who wish to participate in training, education or employment. Quality child care is not just an issue for parents who wish to participate in training, work or education. Central to any developments are the needs and rights of the child. The basic principle underlying the rights of children is that society has an obligation to meet the fundamental needs of children and to provide assistance to aid the development of the child's personality, talents and abilities. Research informs us that quality child care provides social and developmental opportunities which lead to lifelong benefits for children in relation to their participation in society both socially and economically. In recognition of the complexity of the issue, shortly after taking office in July 1997, the Government established a expert working group on child care under the Partnership 2000 agreement to devise a national child care framework. The group was chaired by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and membership compromised about 80 member representatives of the statutory sector, social partners, non-governmental organisations, providers, parents and individuals with expertise and interest in the development of child care. The establishment of the expert working group facilitated wide consultation with all the interested parties. It deliberated for 18 months, undertook research projects and presented its report in February 1999. That report outlines a national child care strategy comprising recommendations in relation to regulations and standards, employment, training and qualifications in the child care sector, supports for child care providers, supports for parents in relation to child care costs and planning and co-ordination. Many of the recommendations of the expert working group are effected in the programmes recently announced by the Government, particularly in relation to the increased investment in the development of child care service provision and the establishment of co-ordinating structures at national and local levels. The structures are designed to ensure a more effective, inclusive and co-ordinated approach to investment, finance and resources to develop quality child care which meets the needs of children nationwide. The national development plan provides £250 million to the equal opportunities child care programme of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which operates from social inclusion and equal opportunities perspectives. The funding is being invested in capital and staffing grants for community groups and not for profit organisations, for the establishment and development of community based child care facilities and capital grants for self-employed child care services caring for no more than 20 children at any one time. To date, 371 applications have been received for capital and staffing grants and 166 have been approved to the value of £14.1 million. The grants will support almost 5,300 child care places in these facilities, including the establishment of over 2,200 new child care places. The funding also covers grants to assist quality improvement, including training initiatives, the development of local child care networks and funding for the enhancement of the national voluntary child care organisations which provide vital supports to child care service providers. On Friday, 17 November last, funding of £7.62 million was approved by the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, for seven organisations in recognition of the important role they have in assisting the development of quality child care service provision which meets the needs of children. The Government also recognises that the level of training and qualifications of child care workers impacts on the quality levels in child care service delivery. Funding is being provided to the OMNA early years project of the Centre for Social and Educational Research under the equal opportunities child care programme for the development of a national training and qualifications framework for the child care sector. This framework will contribute to the consolidation of the child care profession. The initiatives are designed to encourage development of child care service provision with the objectives of maintaining existing child care places leading to the creation of additional child care places and child care facilities and improving the quality of child care service provision which meets the needs of the child. Further State funding and support are available to the child care sector under additional initiatives - £5 million to the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs to develop community based out of school hours projects, £5 million to the Department of Education and Science for grants to school managements to develop after school services and £1.4 million to the Department of Health and Children for the development of a child care advisory service by the health boards to enable them to assist others in the implementation of the regulations to ensure not just the provision places, but the quality of places as well. The child care sector can also benefit from capital allowances introduced initially in budget 1999, providing tax relief, and again in budget 2000. Members will know that on 19 July last, the Taoiseach launched an information booklet entitled, Child Care Funding in Ireland, to advise child care providers and prospective child care providers of the range of supports available from various Departments and State agencies. Most recently, the Government provided an additional £40 million for child care measures and this funding is being shared between four Departments. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been allocated £26.5 million which will provide £9 million for capital grants, £5 million for community based child care facilities which do not qualify under other schemes, £1 million for improved staffing grants for community based projects and £6.5 million for the national child minders initiative which is the first national initiative targeted specifically at child minders and will involve start up grants, information campaigns and other supports. In addition, £5 million is provided for improving quality through training and research. The Department of Education and Science has been allocated £7.5 million of which £2.5 million is for the use of spare classrooms for child care. Over 100 schools have already signalled a willingness to allow their spare classrooms to be used for child care. This funding will provide them with financial support towards this. Also £5 million is provided for a national after school initiative. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has been allocated £1 million for child care employment grants and the Department of the Environment and Local Government has been allocated £5 million for the provision of child care in local authority developments.

The Government has assigned responsibility for leading the co-ordination of child care services to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The role involves the establishment of structures at national and local levels, an interdepartmental committee, a national co-ordinating child care committee and, most importantly, county child care committees which will ensure representation from the statutory sector, the traditional social partners, parents and representatives of child care providers and the national voluntary child care organisations. We believe child care must be strategically developed. A holistic approach is necessary and the needs of the children and parents must be fully met in any strategy development. We believe the only way to achieve this is to have the involvement of all of the parties concerned with child care working together in a spirit of partnership. The operation and establishment of the structures will have a vital role in the future development of quality child care. Never before has so much funding been made available to invest in child care but it must be wisely invested for greatest effect. Child care policy must provide for equality of access and participation in quality child care services by the children of the nation. The structures provide fora for discussion and exchange of information. I believe they will impact on our national child care strategy over the course of the national development plan. My colleague, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, recently published draft guidelines for planning authorities on child care facilities for consultation in May of this year. They will assist planning authorities in their efforts to make suitable provision for child care in their development plans and will be of interest to developers, builders and child care service providers and will assist the fulfilling of the requirement that the provision of services for the community, including crèches and other child care facilities, must be included as an objective in development plans. Child benefit is a major concern of the motion being discussed tonight. It is a hugely important part of our income supports for families. While some income supports are selective, like the family income supplement for low paid workers or the child dependant allowances paid with social welfare payments, child benefit is not. It is paid to all families regardless of the parents income or labour force status. It, therefore, represents the commitment which we as a society make towards all of our children. It is normally paid to the mother and recognises the importance of the unpaid work done by the primary carer. The value placed on the child benefit scheme by this Government is reflected in the level of resources invested in the scheme over the past number of years. The 1999 budget provided for a full year investment of over £40 million while last December's budget provided for a full year investment of £106 million bringing total investment in the scheme to £575 million annually. Some 491,000 families with a total of 967,000 children benefited from these increases. To illustrate the priority given by the Government to child benefit, the increases in the last budget represented in terms of cost 25% of the whole package of social welfare improvements. Within the system, the importance of child benefit has been increasing. Since the mid-1990s it has been recognised that selective payments to children can cause severe poverty traps as such allowances are withdrawn on taking up work. Child benefit, however, is a universal scheme and, therefore, does not have undesirable effects. In view of this, it has been recent policy to increase child benefit substantially and, therefore, reduce the relative importance of child dependant allowances. At the same time, the combined incomes from both payments has exceeded inflation. It has increased by more than double the rate of inflation since 1994 and the proportion of this represented by child benefit has increased from 29% to 47%. The potential poverty trap represented by selective payments to children has reduced considerably. It is sometimes argued that child benefit is not sufficiently targeted because it goes to all families and not just to the poorest. The Government does not accept this argument. All our families and all our children are deserving of support from the State. Anyone with children knows that regardless of how high the family's income may be, child benefit is a useful addition to the family budget. It is also interesting to note that research on the incidence of child benefit has shown that expenditure on the scheme is spread relatively evenly across all income levels, but with slightly less of the expenditure going to those households with highest incomes. It is the fairest way of getting resources to all families who need it. It is the Government's intention that the child benefit scheme will continue to be strengthened as a key instrument in tackling child poverty and targeting resources at those families most in financial need. To this end, the Government has made a commitment to substantially increase the payment over the period of the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, with a priority focus towards £100 per month for third and subsequent children. In line with this commitment, from September last, the basic child benefit monthly rates were increased to £42.50 a month in respect of each of the first two children and £56 a month in respect of the third and subsequent children. I assure the House that in framing next month's budget, the value of child benefit to families will be fully taken into account. Regarding the link between child benefit and child care costs, Senators will be aware that the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness contains the commitment that, recognising the progress made in the negotiations in relation to child care and following a completion process with the social partners, the Government would adopt a strategy to support parents in meeting their child care needs. As part of this completion process, relevant proposals have been put forward by the social partners. These include a proposal from the community and voluntary pillar that child care costs should be addressed by means of a parental child care payment which would be paid in respect of all families with a child under the age of 14, regardless of whether the parent or parents were in paid employment. The payment would depend on the age of the child, with higher payments for children under the age of five. A similar proposal has been made in a number of pre-budget submissions, including those from the National Women's Council of Ireland and the Childcare 2000 Campaign. On the other hand, the trade union movement has argued in favour of tax relief for child care with supplementary payments for parents outside the tax net. All the options put forward by the social partners in relation to child care are being studied by the Government in the run up to the budget. Obviously, I cannot pre-empt decisions by commenting on what role, if any, child benefit might play in that regard. However, regardless of what may be agreed in relation to the child care issue, the merits of child benefit in its own right are clear. We have shown our commitment to children by increasing the payment substantially and by targeting larger increases at larger families whose needs obviously are greater. We will continue in future budgets to increase this most valuable payment. There are many other issues in relation to children that we could discuss at length, but I wanted to address the specific points that were raised. I thank the Senators for their comments and interest. Mrs. Jackman: I wish to share my time with Senator Quinn. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. Mrs. Jackman: I have great respect for Senator Quill and the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, who will make further strides in relation to child care. She has done much and given that I am in Opposition, that is a compliment. I would have preferred if the motion dealt specifically with child care. The Fine Gael Party tabled an amendment because, in terms of our consideration of the Cherishing all the Children of the Nation Equally document, the issue of child poverty is so large that it requires a separate debate. The level of child poverty is one of the most catastrophic aspects of modern society, despite the fact that the country is doing so well. I understand Senator Quill's point of view and the motion is based on her personal conviction. However, I query whether the Progressive Democrats Party shares the Senator's commitment to the less well off. She has always heralded the issue in the House and her motion is sincere. I hope she will bring her sentiments to her party and ensure that it follows through on her desire for adequate child care facilities appropriate to the requirements of the Celtic tiger economy. We all support an increase in child benefit as the best and fairest way to address this issue. However, there are other financial ways in which it can be addressed. There are many facets to the motion. For example, well over 600,000 women are in paid employment and, of those, it is estimated that 46% have children under the age of four. This is an enormous number of children. The number of women working is expected to grow by 37% by 2011, and my view is that it will grow at a faster rate because these figures are 12 months old. However, women are not being drawn into the workforce for equality reasons but because they are needed. However, that is an issue for another day. It is expected that at least 218,000 women will join or rejoin the labour force. It is obvious that the demand for child care will increase because of the number of women at work, but it will also increase because women who choose to care for their children at home will also want to avail of these services. They are often forgotten. If one decides to care for one's children at home, it is as if one does not need a break or that one should not look for child care places in crèches or in Montessori schools for one's children. Statistics show that 25% of full-time mothers use child care facilities because they also combine parenting with other responsibilities. It is often forgotten that many of them wish to participate in further education and training or voluntary work, an area in which women have always been to the fore. Women working in the home should receive further support, including the option of child care to assist their wider participation in their families and their communities. My party believes there is an urgent need for a national child care plan. The Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, outlined the issues and where the responsibility for progress lies. However, our belief is that direct financial benefits to families with children is one of the most effective ways to support families, to respect their right to make choices and to address child poverty. As has been repeatedly stated, child benefit should be doubled for all children under the age of five. This would be a simple and effective way of enhancing child income support and supporting the cost of child care in all circumstances. I have been told by people in crèches and by Montessori teachers that they find it heartbreaking when they have to refuse places to parents who are not in a financial position to pay for child care. These parents are not poor; they are middle income earners. If one is running a crèche or a Montessori school, one must pay high rates if one wants quality child care workers and teachers. This cost is problematic because it must be passed on to the parents. Such parents need a State sponsored, supported and funded child care system. They are victims because they do not have proper financial means and I want their situation redressed in the forthcoming budget.   7 o'clock Mr. Quinn: I thank Senator Jackman for sharing her time. I wish to concentrate on the issue of crèches and child care facilities. The position in the Lucan-Leixlip area may be an example of what is happening around the country. Some years ago new regulations were introduced. These were worthwhile and they related to hygiene, toilets, ventilation and staff ratios. Since that happened crèches in that area have been closing down; they are disappearing. Four of them closed down for various reasons, although perhaps they had valid reasons to do so. Let me give a particular example, a crèche called Rainbow's End which is threatened with closure. In that area many parents who go to work are faced with a crisis because they have nowhere to leave their children. This problem arose very quickly. Local residents are objecting to these facilities because they are located in residential areas and too many cars are being parked around the crèches. I do not know how to handle this problem. Once objections are tendered a crèche has only a fortnight to cease business and this leaves parents stranded. Problems started to arise when the Government introduced new regulations and restrictions two years ago. Prior to their introduction an individual could convert part of their residence into a crèche without prior planning permission. All they had to do was seek approval from the Eastern Health Board or the Eastern Regional Health Authority as it is now called, which would advise application for retention permission from the authorities in order to continue maintaining their premises. The child care problem may be addressed in the next budget and I know the Minister has talked about it. Unfortunately, that may be too late for the Rainbow's End crèche. The Minister must sort out the problem of registered child carers and their facilities because the situation is quite desperate. Women who wish to work may not be able to do so if this problem is not solved. I say this although I cannot offer an immediate solution to this problem. My company Superquinn started playhouses about 25 years ago. We were looking after up to 15,000 children per week but when the new restrictions were introduced we reduced the figure to about 10,000 children per week. That is a very big number but we provide a great free service. I mention it because it is of great benefit to parents because their children will have benefited from this type of experience when they go to school. Customers were very willing to adjust to the new restrictions because they realised why only a certain number of children were allowed into each playhouse. These restrictions do not create a crisis for commercial companies like Superquinn but for those crèches that were started up and are attempting to relieve the child care problem. I take the Rainbow's End crèche as an example of what has been occurring ever since the new restrictions were introduced. The level of planning applications and objections has been much higher. I gather a reasonably large number of planning objections have been sustained. I can understand why people living near a crèche would be unhappy with cars parking in a residential area. This crisis is happening now. The Government must address it and do something about it. I am not sure what the solution is but I know it is in the hands of the Government. I welcome the Minister of State's words tonight and the efforts that are being made. I welcome what I believe we will hear as good news in the budget which is coming up very shortly. I hope that it is not too late for crèches like Rainbow's End which plays such a valuable role in that area.   Dr. Fitzpatrick: I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I also welcome the national children's strategy. For the first time the Government of the day is attempting to give children and children's needs their rightful place in the sun. When the President addressed the Houses of the Oireachtas she said inter alia that children are not born bad but that adults made them bad. She focused on parenthood, the needs of parents and how to make parenting beneficial for parents and children. We need a change in culture in the adult population in how we view children and their needs and that will take time. In the early 1990s I chaired the committee which dealt with Committee Stage of the first Child Care Bill that came through these Houses. That Bill lay on the Dáil schedule for eight years on Second Stage because the Dáil and its Members could not agree on the basic tenets on how to approach children's needs. It went to Committee Stage and it passed in about 18 months. That was a very sharp learning experience for me and every member of that committee. This happened before the great institutional scandals broke. These scandals happened here, in England and across Europe. Sometime in the 1990s European societies started to lift stones and examine their institutions. They did not like what they saw but this problem will not go away. I watched a programme on BBC 2 last night which dealt with a particularly horrific child abuse case. In the discussion afterwards the frightening point was made that child abuse is not the preserve of institutional care. The majority of child abuse occurs within families. We were brought up to praise and revere the family. I had a very happy childhood and a good upbringing, as I am sure most Members did, to the point that I could not conceive as an adult that there could be another way of life or that a more horrific upbringing was quite common. Unfortunately, it is still very common today. It behoves us as people in positions of influence to put children first and to see to their needs. I am glad this commission will be chaired by the Taoiseach. I presume that means the Taoiseach of the day, not just the present Taoiseach. I hope that in succeeding Governments the Taoiseach of the day will chair a Cabinet committee for children. I would have gone further than that. When I chaired the Oireachtas committee it occurred to me that we needed a senior Minister responsible for children. It may not sound bright or intelligent, but I would have gone so far as to abolish the Departments of Health and Children, Social, Community and Family Affairs and Education and Science and substituted them with departments of children, adults and senior citizens. Most of us here who have dealt with Departments and health boards will realise that the focus of all the committees, boards or Departments are systems driven and focused. They are not customer, child, adult or senior citizen focused. Anyone who has been a member of these boards will be well aware of the mountain of paper that arrives on the desk on a weekly basis but makes no mention of customers. These papers refer to the systems by which the service will be brought to the customer. We are told these bodies focus on the customer's needs. They are not, rather they are focusing on the system's needs. We must think about this problem. I am not saying something that we all do not know; this is what is happening but we must get back to the point. Perhaps a Department of children or a committee chaired by the Taoiseach of the day which will focus on the needs of children might get something done. We should not expect miracles. First, we must educate the adult population and parents that there is a different and better way to treat children. Senator Henry spoke about the generation of women who stayed at home in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. During those years women had to retire on marriage no matter how good their position in the public service. I am talking about teachers, nurses and doctors. That generation of women, to whom I pay tribute, raised the generation who are reaping the benefits today of their sacrifice. Perhaps I am getting paranoid in my old age, but I feel the glossy media, such as the Saturday magazines of the Irish Times and Irish Independent, downgrade parenthood and regard it as an optional extra. It is not - it is full-time and the most demanding job any couple can take up. I do not have to tell that to this House. The committee on children should look at the way the media in our society can place an emphasis that is to the detriment of the greater good of society, although I do not say it does that deliberately. I am glad children will have a voice and be given new opportunities at national level. I hope it will not be just the children who are vocal and good communicators who are given this voice. The children at the back of the class, the ones who are bullied and cannot fight their corner, should also be given a voice. The Minister of State said that children's lives will be better understood. Should she not have said that families' lives will be better understood? The focus should be on the family. I am talking here about the wider family, not just the nuclear family of a father, mother and a few children. The dynamics of how families function should be studied and time should be invested in looking at them. That would be for the greater good. Ms Ormonde: I welcome the Minister of State. When I discovered I was to speak in this debate I decided to look for some information. I tried several Departments, which were all running around in circles trying to find out which was taking responsibility for this debate. That is not good enough. We are talking here about young lives, children who are not being cared for and lack adequate child care facilities, and how best to improve that. I welcome the Minister of State's speech which gave me new ideas on this. She spoke about a strategy for the child care of the future and the need to have a vision of where we are going. This strategy would take the whole child into perspective. It would be a listening concept and would understand the child's needs. It would promote aspects of all their development and try to introduce a better quality of life. We must start from that point because the whole concept of life has changed. The model family we all grew up in has changed, which has created problems for the very young generation which is trying to cope with the ills in society today, through no fault of theirs. We must take up the pieces in that regard, but I wonder how well we are doing that. I welcome the Minister of State's statement that she is setting up a national children's office which will co-ordinate the various Departments. That would be a start in the right direction. I did not know to which office I should go to get information for this debate. I welcome the money being provided for extra child care facilities. Due to my knowledge of the educational world, I welcome the allocation of money for the provision of facilities in schools, such as extra lighting and heating, which will allow young people who cannot go home to remain in school until later in the afternoon. That must be encouraged and all our educationalists must play their part in it. There is still a lot of apprehension about allowing schools to stay open to provide that facility to the young children of the area. I am adamant that should be the future policy, and not just for the chosen few who have an interest in this area. I welcome the start in that direction. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government has provided planning guidelines, under which any new development will have to incorporate child care facilities. That must be done in all areas. Past experience has shown that people who decide to set up a crèche are met with such objections that no facilities are provided in the area. We are being visionary now, in a way we were not in the past when infrastructure for our children was provided in a willy nilly fashion. I welcome the co-ordinated plan, where all the Departments will come together to develop a policy. The White Paper on early childhood addresses how best we can facilitate the very young, in terms of the early start school programmes, which give parents a chance to develop parenting skills. We often find that parents do not know how to rear their children and are looking for support. Teachers have a much bigger role to play in this regard and should be given that opportunity. Perhaps one of the reasons we have unrest in the teaching profession is that teachers are asked to do things they are not paid for. This is an opportunity for a co-ordinated plan to facilitate parenting skills by co-operating with young parents on how best they can break this cycle in their area. There is a lot of visionary thinking in the budget and the speech by the Minister of State. The Government is committed to ensuring the future quality of life of our young children. As matters stand, these issues are all over the place, which was clear from the Minister of State's statement that she is trying to bring it all together. This is a welcome debate, which is getting better as it goes on. Members have highlighted many issues that can be brought together. We must protect the young. They will be the future society and they are where we were many moons ago. We must give them the chances we have had. We should do whatever we can, as parliamentarians, to give young people a better quality of life and a start. That commitment was given in the speech this evening by the Minister of State. We have a vision for the future and a commitment in the budget. I expect the forthcoming budget will have more to say in regard to child care facilities and courses to standardise the training of child carers. Child benefits will also be provided from which all parents will benefit, enabling them help their children grow up into healthy young adults.

Mr. O'Donovan: I welcome this important debate on this very significant issue. The issue of child care has been on the political agenda for the past two decades. Various Governments have spoken a lot of palaver about it. However, the current Government is the first really to tackle this issue. It has grasped the nettle and put in place a system, including financial support, for the betterment of child care in the future. It is important to note that before this Government came into office, very little was done about this issue other than to talk about it. The Government has committed serious funding to this area under the national development plan. The Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Education and Science and Social, Community Family Affairs have together laid the foundation for the future of child care. Much more needs to be done, but a start has been made. The Government has taken the first steps in dealing with the future of child care and of young people, who are the future of this country. It has made a huge commitment to this issue. The Government's designation of a Minister of State with special responsibility for children has been an important factor. Child care grants totalling approximately £14.1 million have been approved. Some will be provided under capital funding. These grants will support approximately 5,300 places in community based child care facilities, including the establishment of over 2,200 new child care places. This is significant progress. There has been criticism among the Opposition and the media that not enough has been done. However, we are moving in the right direction. I am confident that under the national development plan and the programme and funding available for child care and related matters, the dreams and desires of those involved in child care will be put in place. In this regard, a number of grants have been approved to date - 30 relate to capital projects for community based child care services, 81 relate to staffing grants for such services and the remaining 55 grants are for self-employed child care providers. As a result of a Government initiative, supported by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Ministers concerned, the National Voluntary Child Care Organisation was launched. I today received a copy of the national children's strategy document, Our Children - Their Lives. I have not fully pursued it, but it is a most important document. It deals with a number of important issues, including the establishment of a Cabinet sub-committee, chaired by the Taoiseach. That indicates the seriousness with which the Taoiseach and the Government view the issue. The sub-committee will involve all Ministers concerned, including the Ministers for Education and Science, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Social, Community and Family Affairs. They will oversee the co-ordination of Government policy for children and the implementation of the strategy. It is also important to recognise that the strategy envisages that a national children's advisory council will bring together all the key sectors working with children to advise the Ministers and to oversee the implementation of strategy. A full review will take place of all Departments' responsibilities and a national play and recreational plan will be developed. A dedicated fund will be established to implement it. The essence of the national children's strategy is to ensure that children will have a voice. They will no longer be the forgotten aspect of family and community structures. The establishment of Dáil na n-Óg is a revolutionary new concept. I welcome it and praise the endeavours of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the relevant Ministers. Last week the House debated the establishment of a press Ombudsman to monitor and self-regulate the press and journalists in view of recent developments in that area. Following support from the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Hanafin, an office of Ombudsman for children is to be established. I welcome that. These are some of the new initiatives that have been put together under this strategy. I welcome them and I am confident that much more will be achieved over the next 18 months, during the remainder of the life time of this Government, whose term of office I have no doubt will be completed. I hope that when the national development plan will be implemented in the period 2001-6 there will be in place a solid structure of child care co-ordinated by different Departments on a nationwide basis and covering all aspects, with back-up funding and follow-up programmes in place. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minster of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Moffatt, for attending this debate. The Government has made a huge start. Bíonn gach tosach lag. The Government's commitment to child care and related services is one of which we can be proud. It has grasped the nettle and has moved forward from the talking shops that existed over the past 20 years. I am pleased we are moving in a positive direction and I encourage all those involved to see matters through over the coming years to ensure that the most vulnerable sector of our society will get the support and care they need in their vulnerable years. Mr. Costello: Amendment No. 2 reads: To delete all words after "equally" and substitute the following: "and determines to put in place a free national system of pre-school education." I welcome this debate on the need to cherish all the children of the nation equally. I agree with the first clause of the motion, which states: "That Seanad Éireann recognises the need to cherish all the children of the nation equally". However, I am not pleased with the next clause, which states: "the need to provide adequate child care facilities appropriate to the requirements of a modern, prosperous society". Surely we need to provide child care facilities and give children the best chance in life without the limitation of the words "appropriate to the requirements of a modern, prosperous society", as if to suggest that now is the time to look at child care needs and that we could disregard them when the society was not prosperous. There is a greater need to put better facilities in place at present, but I do not like the nuance of the second clause of the motion. Cherishing all the children of the nation is an end in itself without being tempered by considerations of whether we are a modern or prosperous society. We still have a long way to go and the Fine Gael amendment goes some way towards outlining what needs to be done. Barnardos made a presentation to the Joint Committee on Family, Social and Community Affairs yesterday. They were also speaking on behalf of Pavee Point, Focus Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. The facts they outlined to the committee are very stark: Ireland has one of the worst rates of child poverty in the EU; one in six children lives in a family considered to be consistently poor, namely low income families which lack certain basic necessities; one in four children lives in a family with less than half of average income; and children of lone parents and children in larger families are more likely to experience poverty.

In the area of education the following statistics were outlined. Approximately 5,000 young people leave school early each year and a further 1,000 do not transfer from primary to second level; the majority of disadvantaged pupils - 60% - live in rural areas, followed by Dublin at 25.5%, although we might have expected it to be the other way around; one in ten children leaves primary school with significant literacy problems; many children in Ireland lack appropriate or adequate play provision - golf courses are twice as numerous as playgrounds - and 46% of local authorities do not provide any playgrounds. Local authorities which are empowered and have a responsibility to provide playgrounds are actually closing down existing ones for insurance reasons and the possibility of compensation claims; the participation rate of Traveller children in the education system is very low, particularly at second level, and infant mortality in the Traveller population is twice that of the settled community; and the vast majority of schools are inaccessible physically, socially and educationally to children with disabilities. There were 160 homeless, unattached children in the Dublin area in one week in March 1999. In 1999, the Cork Simon Community received 100 contacts from young homeless people with drug and alcohol abuse problems. It is ironic that the motion states adequate child care should be provided in a prosperous society. We should provide such care in any event but we do not have any excuse for not providing it at present. I tabled an amendment to the motion because I am quite alarmed by the direction in which child care is going at present. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform recently announced a £250 million capital investment in child care and the Taoiseach announced a further investment of £40 million to be directed at local communities rather than at the private sector. This funding is essentially directed towards the acquisition of suitable premises for crèches and other child care facilities. It is further directed at the business sector in order to enable parents to go out to work. The huge issue of current expenditure remains. It is all very well to have a premises but how are people to run these expensive facilities? Child care staff are very poorly paid and nobody has yet addressed the fact that, by and large, their wage rates are below the national minimum wage level. We should look at the provision of child care from an educational rather than a business point of view. The issue of child development should be tackled in a holistic way. We have forgotten about education in this debate. We should be operating a system of child care which derives not only from the need to care for a child when its parents are at work but which also considers the child's development needs. Those needs are being ignored in this booming society because of the need to attract increasing numbers of parents into the workforce. A free national pre-school education system should be put in place for the two to four year old age group, particularly the three to four year old cohort. A primary education system is not sufficient. Child benefit goes towards feeding and clothing children but how does one deal with the children's educational and development needs? There seems to be a suggestion that this could be done by providing an additional taxed benefit from the State. I am not sure that is the way to proceed because it will only be directed at working parents. We have been putting the cart before the horse in regard to this issue. The State provides free primary, second level and third level education and must now provide a system of free pre-school education. That would do a great deal to lighten the burden of child care for parents. Mr. Glynn: Cuirim fáilte roimh an tAire go dtí an Teach. I support the motion and share the widely held view that child benefit represents a key instrument for tackling child poverty and targeting child income support. Child benefit is a universal payment which is not taxable and is not assessed as means for other secondary benefits. Therefore, it does not contribute to disincentives to taking up employment or to improving wages. I welcome the role played by this Government since it took up office in making the child benefit scheme the cornerstone of income support for families with children. Recognising that the loss of child dependant allowances can act as a disincentive to taking up available work opportunities, the Government has focused on the provision of substantial increases in child benefit, while maintaining child dependant allowance rates at existing levels. The strides made by this Government in strengthening the child benefit scheme are evident from the increasing value of child income support payments since the policy commenced in 1994. Since 1994, the combined child benefit/child dependant allowance payment has increased by more than double the rate of inflation and the proportion represented by child benefit has increased from 29% to 47%. Moreover, the lower rate of child benefit has increased from £30 to £42.50 per month, and the higher rate from £39 to £56 per month since the Government took office. These policies have resulted in real gains for all families with children. The Government has also made a commitment to increase the payment substantially over the period of the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, with a priority focus towards £100 per month for third and subsequent children. I hope the Government can advance moves towards achieving this target in the forthcoming budget because larger families tend to be at greater risk of poverty. Because of the universal nature of the child benefit scheme, resources directed through it can directly benefit all children, regardless of the parents' income or labour force status. The fact that payment is normally vested in the mother has a number of advantages. First, it is a way of recognising the important value of the unpaid work done by the primary carer, who is usually the mother and, second, research shows that the payment is more likely to be used for the benefit of the child if paid to the primary carer. It is clear, therefore, that child benefit has a key role in assisting all parents with the financial burden of raising children. In view of this, I would broadly welcome any proposals made by the Government to further enhance the child benefit scheme. With regard to child care costs and a potential role for child benefit, I note the Government has made a commitment in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, following a consultation process with the social partners, to adopt a strategy to support parents in meeting their child care needs. The resolution of this issue is by no means straightforward. Anyone who has child care costs will say that costs for younger children can be higher than for school going children, because younger children require care on a full-time basis. An age related payment designed to pay higher amounts to younger children could be one option. On the other hand, some people may find that their child care costs are higher because they live in a certain area or there is a limited choice of suitable child care. For these people, a form of tax relief which relates to the level of their expenditure may be an option. Some people may take the view that a child care payment directed at all parents, whether they are looking after the children within the home or outside, is the moot equitable solution. Indeed, advancing the process of increasing child benefit would be a way of ensuring that benefits accrue to all families across the board, whether the care of children is being provided within or outside the home. I am confident that the Government will carefully consider to what extent child benefit should feature in any proposals to assist parents with child care costs. I wish them well in their efforts to find a solution to this complex matter and look forward to the outcome. The issue of responsibility was touched upon by Senator Costello. I remind the Senator and everybody else that the primary responsibility for the education of children lies with the parents. I have also raised in the House and with my local authority the number of juvenile children, aged eight, nine or ten years, on the streets of our towns, villages and cities in the early hours of the morning. This begs the question as to where their parents are. Those who have read Oliver Twist, that great novel by Dickens, know there are still Fagins in society who are ready to take on those children. Miss Quill: There are many Fagins. Mrs. Ridge: Some of them are in the Government. Mr. Glynn: I would be suitably embarrassed if I was Senator Ridge as her party did nothing and it took them three years to do it. This area is very important as we are talking about the citizens and leaders of tomorrow. I support the motion. Miss Quill: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Wallace, and commend her for being here. However, I particularly commend the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin. I welcome the speech she made here this evening and acknowledge the coherence she has brought to the issue of child care since she took up her position as Minister. There has certainly been a great tying up of loose ends and fragmentation and a new coherence is beginning to emerge, which is welcome. There is also a determination on the part of the Minister to drive the agenda forward, which gives me grounds for optimism. I particularly like the primacy she has placed on child care in its own right in the context of her strategy document, not child care with the aim of freeing up more women to enable them join the work force and underpin a rapidly growing economy, which is only of secondary importance. I am also pleased with the manner in which she has put this committee in place, to be headed by the Taoiseach, and the promise that every Department will be child proofed. We can look forward to some improvements resulting from this. The document is highly aspirational and it will take enormous courage and determination to realise its objectives. I particularly thank the Senators who engaged in the debate. I thank Senator Ridge for the common sense and grounded approach she brings to this issue. It is obvious she has a real, living understanding of what is involved rather than a textbook understanding. Her comments are always interesting. Senator Jackman complimented me personally but said I was speaking on my own behalf and was not in anyway giving voice to party policy. However, that is not correct. She invited me to speak to the Tánaiste and to ask her to embrace what I said. In fact I was quoting from what the Tánaiste said at our national conference, namely, that "the Progressive Democrats are committed to a policy principle of getting rid of and once and for all eliminating child poverty". Senator Jackman has either intentionally or otherwise misread our position on this issue.

Senator Henry welcomed my motion but said she detected a lack of urgency. I am afraid that again she misrepresented the position. There is extreme urgency on this matter. The Progressive Democrats are asking for an increase in child benefit to £100 in the same spirit and sense of urgency as when we had included in the joint programme for Government the objective of raising old age pensions to £100 per week. Senator Costello said he would come to the House to hear what I had to say. I was intrigued to see his amendment to the motion relating to the provision of a national system of nursery care. I clearly and distinctly remember - it is on record - when I was a Deputy and when the Minister and Senator Costello's party abolished third level fees for everybody irrespective of family income. At that time I put it to the Minister that she had the option of investing the money in the lowest rung of the education ladder, namely, pre-school education. However, she put the resources into the abolition of third level fees for every family in the land irrespective of income. That was the priority of the Labour Party. Mr. Costello: The abolition of third level fees cost hardly any money as the system was being abused by investment. An Cathaoirleach: Senator Quill must be allowed reply without interruption. Mr. Costello: Who abolished Breaking the Cycle? Miss Quill: That was the priority of the Labour Party Minister, something which is on the record of the House. If we were having a debate on education I would be very strong in asking for funding for pre-school education, but that is not the specific topic of this debate. Briefly I wish to refer to the point made by Senator Fitzpatrick who said there must be a cultural change in the country if we are to deal with the issue of child neglect. He is correct; there has to be a cultural change as there is evidence, perhaps not of deliberate neglect, but of child carelessness when there should be child care. Because of that we have teenage drinking, with teenagers on the streets unsupervised and uncared for. Unless we have the full support of families and the community to work in parallel with what the Government is now proposing we will not have a culture of child care and the country will not be a good or healthy place for all our children to grow up in and become responsible adults. I very much thank those who support the motion. The objective of raising child benefit to £100 is very worthy and must be pursued and acknowledged in the next budget. I am very sorry that the House must divide on an issue as basic as child care. Amendment put.   The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 29. Tá Caffrey, Ernie. Connor, John. Coogan, Fintan. Cosgrave, Liam T. Costello, Joe. Hayes, Tom. Henry, Mary. Jackman, Mary. Keogh, Helen. Manning, Maurice. Norris, David. O'Dowd, Fergus. O'Meara, Kathleen. O'Toole, Joe. Ridge, Thérèse. Ross, Shane.   Níl Bohan, Eddie. Bonner, Enda. Callanan, Peter. Cassidy, Donie. Chambers, Frank. Cox, Margaret. Cregan, John Dardis, John. Farrell, Willie. Fitzgerald, Liam. Fitzgerald, Tom. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. Gibbons, Jim. Glennon, Jim. Glynn, Camillus. Kett, Tony. Kiely, Daniel. Kiely, Rory. Lanigan, Mick. Lydon, Don. Mooney, Paschal. Moylan, Pat. O'Brien, Francis. O'Donovan, Denis. Ó Fearghail, Seán. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Ormonde, Ann. Quill, Máirín. Walsh, Jim. Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Hayes and Ridge; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons. Amendment declared lost. 8 o'clock Mr. Costello: I move amendment No. 2: To delete all words after "equally" and substitute the following: "and determines to put in place a free national system of pre-school education." Ms O'Meara: I second the amendment.