Employment Equality Act, 1998 (section 12)(Church of Ireland College of Education) Order, 2000 29th June, 2000 Acting Chairman (Mr. Dardis): I remind Members that 30 minutes have been allocated for this item, with seven minutes for each speaker. Ms Ormonde: I move: That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:----- Employment Equality Act, 1998 (section 12) (Church of Ireland College of Education) Order, 2000, copies of which were laid in draft form before Seanad Éireann on 27 June, 2000." Minister for Education and Science (Dr. Woods): The purpose of this order is to reserve 32 places in the first year of the bachelor of education course in the Church of Ireland College of Education, Rathmines, for students who are members of the Church of Ireland or who belong to the broad Protestant tradition. The making of the order and its laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas arises from the provisions of the Employment Equality Act, 1998, and the need to ensure that the rights and interests of the college, schools with a Protestant ethos and the students in those schools, are provided for. The Employment Equality Act, 1998, prohibits discrimination on a wide range of grounds, including religion. While the Act deals primarily with discrimination in employment, it also extends to discrimination in vocational training. Vocational training is defined as any system of instruction which enables a person to acquire the knowledge for the carrying on of an occupational activity. Teacher training falls within this definition. For many years, and probably since its foundation, the Church of Ireland College of Education has provided training in primary school teaching only for students who come from the Church of Ireland and the broader Protestant tradition. The purpose of this practice is to ensure that there is available to schools under Protestant ownership a sufficient number of teachers who themselves come from a Protestant background and are trained in an institution with a Protestant ethos. Most primary schools in the State are privately owned, publicly funded denominational schools. This system of denominational education is underpinned by the Constitution. Collateral to the right of the religious denominations to conduct schools with a particular ethos is their right to ensure that they have available to them a corps of staff belonging to and trained in the particular religious denomination of the school. If such staff were not available then the constitutional rights to free profession of religion and the conduct of denominational schools would be seriously impaired. To avoid imposing what would, in effect, be unconstitutional restrictions on the rights of the denominations in this regard, section 12 of the Employment Equality Act, which prohibits discrimination in vocational training, makes two exceptions. It provides that for the purpose of ensuring the availability of nurses to hospitals and teachers to primary schools which are denominational in character, and in order to maintain the religious ethos of the hospitals and the schools, the prohibition of discrimination does not apply in certain circumstances. In the case of primary schools, the section provides that an educational or training body may apply to the Minister for Education and Science for an order permitting the body to reserve places in the vocational training course. The Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, may then make an order allowing the body to reserve such number of places to meet the needs for teachers in primary schools as is considered appropriate. The Church of Ireland College of Education has made an application on behalf of the college for the reservation of 32 places in the college for the academic years 2000/1, 2001/2 and 2002/3, for students who are members of recognised churches in the Protestant tradition - essentially, in this instance, the Church of Ireland, the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church. The college made the case that the reservation of 32 places, which is at present the full complement of first year places in the college, should be made to provide sufficient teachers to Protestant schools over the next few years. The grounds for the request, as put by the college, are as follows: recent initiatives of the Minister for Education and Science, including the allocation of an additional teacher to one-teacher schools, the lowering of the pupil/teacher ratio and the development of remedial education, have placed additional staffing requirements on the schools; anticipated demand in the schools indicates that it outstrips supply from the college; some of those who enter the college will not complete their studies and, of those who qualify, some will not take up posts in schools with a Protestant ethos, or may not teach at all; the career break and early retirement schemes reduce the number of teachers available to schools; in addition, there is some evidence of a greater number of teachers resigning from teaching in recent years than in the past and in the last school year, a survey of schools indicated that 43 posts would become available during or at the end of that school year and, in 1998, 55% of all schools reported that they had encountered "considerable difficulty" in securing qualified teachers to undertake substitute teaching. In the circumstances set out by the college, the reservation of 32 places in the college for students from the Protestant tradition appears reasonable in order to ensure that Protestant schools have available to them a sufficient number of teachers who share their value system and religious beliefs. It is proposed that the order now to be made will continue in force for the next three academic years. I am satisfied it is unlikely that within that period circumstances will materially change, either for the college or the schools which it serves. In the third year of the order, I would propose that the situation be reviewed again and the House will be given a further opportunity to consider the matter. Apart from the constitutional requirements from which this order flows, the order is a necessary support to the maintenance of diversity of values, beliefs and culture in our education system and in Irish society. Given the fact that schools with a Protestant ethos represent only a small minority of primary schools in the State, there is clearly a risk that that ethos could be greatly diluted unless specific protections are provided. This order puts in place a protection which the Oireachtas considered appropriate and which will guarantee to Protestant schools that they can continue to provide education for their students in accordance with their particular values and beliefs. Ms Keogh: I have no difficulty in supporting the order. Section 12 of the Employment Equality Act, 1998, allows for such a provision. Section 12(2) states: In this section "vocational training" means any system of instruction which enables a person being instructed to acquire, maintain, bring up to date or perfect the knowledge or technical capacity required for the carrying on of an occupational activity and which may be considered as exclusively concerned with training for such an activity. As the Minister said, in order to protect minorities, there is a provision that the prohibition on discrimination does not apply in respect of a number of bodies. It is important to protect minorities and their rights are vindicated in this legislation. Many Senators will know about the particular college to which the Minister referred. The Church of Ireland College of Education in Rathmines has a very fine reputation. Nobody would have any great difficulty with the motion. I am glad it is before the House and that Members have an opportunity to say that they agree to it. It is the type of issue that is acceptable to all sides. I take the Minister's point in relation to the numbers. I hope there will not be a decline in numbers in a minority group because minorities that are supported add to the cultural diversity and openness of society. It is right and fair that people who decide to avail of a specific type of education have backing. They should be able to employ teachers who enjoy the same ethos. I support the motion and I commend it. Ms Ormonde: I also welcome the motion and I am delighted to contribute to the debate. The motion will reserve 32 places over the next three years in the bachelor of education degree course in the Church of Ireland College of Education. This is welcome because its religious ethos and rights must be reflected now more than ever. It is important to reinforce the point that there is peace in the North of Ireland and a united front in relation to minorities. Their views should be reflected. As the Minister pointed out, the job scene has changed in all walks of life and particularly for those with educational training. Measures have been introduced to reduce pupil-teacher ratios and to provide extra teachers in what were one teacher schools. Other types of work are now offered to teachers and they are moving out of the educational system to other areas. This has become a huge issue over the past number of years. It is important to ensure continuity. It is also important that the Church of Ireland has trained teachers who reflect its views and ethos. That is welcome. It is a golden opportunity to reinforce our respect for other people's points of view and minorities. I endorse the motion and support the Minister. Dr. Henry: Since the foundation of the State, Governments have always been supportive of the constitutional right to denominational education. It is good that is continuing because it is most important to some people, particularly small Protestant communities. The motion will ensure that teachers will be available for those who want to send their children to what was described as a Church of Ireland school. However, many of these schools are not the school of choice only for Protestant children. A 50:50 ratio with Roman Catholic children is common and the ratio is much higher in secondary schools. However, it is good that the promises made under the Employment Equality Act are being introduced now. Everybody is pleased that members of the Church of Ireland have taken a more active role in the affairs of State in recent years. I give Pope John XXIII a great deal of credit for this and the changes which came into place after Vatican II. He did an enormous amount for the Protestant community in Ireland. Interdenominational schools are extremely important and I am a great supporter of them; I am a patron of the Dalkey School Project. Bishop Michael Smith spoke at a confirmation service recently in County Meath about the importance of denominational education from a Roman Catholic point of view. He was talking about what to do about members of his church who were not practising and if they had a right to send children to their schools. Members of all churches feel that denominational education is extremely important. I knew people in the College of Education when it was Coláiste Mobhi in Glasnevin. It moved to Kildare Street and from there to Rathmines. Its association with Trinity College is a long one and I am slightly worried about one aspect. I have two drafts of the order that will be made. I got one from the Library and I was handed the other. In the second copy, the dreaded words "the University of Dublin" are not mentioned. I hope this will not be another measure that leaves out the University of Dublin because the bachelor of education degree will come from that university. Will the Minister indicate which order will come into effect? I hope it is the one which mentions the vocational education courses in the Church of Ireland College of Education, leading to a degree of bachelor of education of the University of Dublin. Acting Chairman: I am trying very hard not to intervene.

Mr. Kett: I support the motion under section 12 of the Employment Equality Act, 1998, which will reserve existing places in the Church of Ireland College of Education in Rathmines. Section 12 is most important because it prohibits discrimination in vocational training on the grounds of religion. It is an acutely sensitive order because it goes to the heart of the constitutional imperative. The enactment of the provision will give full expression to that imperative. The Minister and his predecessor have been to the fore in fulfilling many of the pledges and obligations given under the programme for Government in relation to education. I compliment him in that regard. In many instances, he has gone beyond the requirements, particularly in the context of technology training. The allocation of additional teachers to small, one teacher schools, coupled with the lowering of the pupil-teacher ratio and the great developments in remedial education, have put an additional squeeze on the teaching resource that is required. It is, therefore, all the more pertinent to accede to the request from the Church of Ireland College of Education to reserve 32 places for students who are members of recognised churches within the Protestant tradition. The measure may appear discriminatory in that it discriminates against students from other religions who wish to apply. It may appear opposite to the spirit of consensual inclusivity, which is the hallmark of the Good Friday Agreement, but the advice of the Attorney General is that the order is intra vires and that is good enough for me. We must be extremely conscious of the narrow base from which Protestant schools take their teachers. In that respect alone, serious consideration should be given to facilitating this request. Another important issue that underlines the request is the anticipated demand to which the Minister referred. A survey showed that 43 places would become available this year in addition to the fact that 55% of surveyed schools suggested that there was a shortfall in the number of teachers available. Those facts are sufficient evidence of the need for the motion. I appreciate the need for the agreement of both Houses to the motion before the recess because of the legal implications for the college prior to the start of the new college year. I fully support the order and I wish the college and the students well in their good work. Ms O'Meara: Like other Senators on this side of the House, I have no difficulty with the order the Minister is making under the Employment Equality Act, 1998, to reserve places in the Church of Ireland College of Education in Rathmines for students who are members of the Church of Ireland or of the broad Protestant tradition. As Senator Kett said, we, as legislators, do not have any difficulty in ensuring that the Protestant tradition is supported because of the principle to nurture and support diversity. That was not always the case, but a great deal has changed. In our efforts to ensure peace on this island, we have come to realise the need to recognise and cultivate diversity. Although many challenges remain, I predict they will change. If a similar request is made to the Minister or his successor in the future by another religious denomination or community, such as the Muslim community, could it be accommodated under the legislation? If the principle applies to one denomination, it should apply to other groups in our community. Given the amount of change and diversity we can expect in our multi-ethnic society in the future, will the Minister clarify if the growing Muslim community, for example, can be included under the legislation? I support the principle behind the motion. Mr. Norris: I did not like this aspect of the Bill when it was going through the House and I spoke against it, although I am a practising member of the Church of Ireland. I still have difficulties with it. I will not rock the boat or call a vote but I am concerned about it. I do not like sectarian education. I do not like it in the North of Ireland where it has been one of the things which has vitiated the scene. The Church of Ireland is exactly the same as the Roman Catholic Church in the North of Ireland but the Roman Catholic Church gets all the stick for looking for denominational education. Survey after survey and eminent academic after eminent academic have said this is one of the problems which has complicated the situation in the North of Ireland. Young people at the start of their education are segregated; they do not mix together. That is a great pity. In a republic we should try to ensure that all citizens are treated equally. Let us openly acknowledge this is a variation on this. It is the responsibility of parents, with the assistance of the church, to inculcate the religious ethos of the group to which they belong. It is not the business of the State to do that. I say that without any ill will towards the Church of Ireland training college with which I have had a long and happy association. I had the pleasure of teaching some of these students when they did courses in Trinity College and they were delightful. I was happy to teach them. As part of my tradition, I welcome them and wish them as well as any other person in the House. I am worried about the principle. I note that the 32 places represent the full complement. The Church of Ireland, the Methodists and the Presbyterians are keeping this to themselves. I wonder why that is the case. I know the smaller denominations are, perhaps, even more vulnerable. However, from a theological point of view, it is my view as an Anglican and a member of the Church of Ireland that we are considerably closer to the Roman Catholic Church in interpretations of matters such as the Eucharist than we are to the Presbyterians or the Methodists. This is a gentlemanly type of numbers game. I do not wish to do anything which would inhibit the development of the teaching resources of the Church of Ireland, but I am worried and it is appropriate to put that on the record. Will the Minister explain to the House if other people who are sufficiently qualified and of no religion or doubters, agnostics, atheists, Roman Catholics, Muslims or Jews have applied, if they wish to take up these resources and if they have been denied that advantage? That is the difficult side of the equation. If citizens of this country want to pursue a course in vocational education, why should they be denied because their rights as citizens are being impeded? It is better to have religious instruction at primary level given by someone who believes in it because any teacher will be better communicating something in which they believe. Will we impose a test on people by asking them if they believe in the Trinity or in the real presence and if they know the difference between transubstantiation and consubstantiation? Acting Chairman: I am reluctant to interrupt the Senator but the relevance of this to the motion escapes me. Mr. Norris: It might escape you but I assure you it would not escape ----- Acting Chairman: This motion is to conclude at 1.22 p.m. If the Minister is to answer questions, the Senator would need to finish his contribution. Mr. Norris: I thank you for that practical advice. Has anyone wanted to enter this course and been disbarred? That would be a great pity. I want further resources to be made available. It would be enriching for people to have a variety of other beliefs. Despite the catastrophic decline in Mass attendance and vocations, the rest of society in the Republic is overwhelmingly, at least nominally, still Roman Catholic. To have at least one or two Roman Catholics in the class when it is discussing and exploring issues might result in them asking the type of questions children will ask in class and it would help to prepare the teachers. I will not oppose the motion but I cannot say I wholeheartedly approve of it. I do so because I dislike all forms of discrimination and I have always have, even if they are, as in this case, to the benefit of the group to which I belong. Minister for Education and Science (Dr. Woods): I thank Senators for their comments. I appreciate that the measure has been welcomed by all sides. I recognise the concerns expressed by Senators Henry and Norris. The draft Senator Henry has is the wrong one; it is an earlier draft from a week ago. The final draft was placed yesterday in the Oireachtas Library. It refers to the degree of bachelor of education of the University of Dublin. The Attorney General has finally advised on this issue. The draft Senator Henry had deals with the courses of the college, while the other draft deals with the accreditation of those courses. They are different issues but, in effect, they are both covered in the one we are proceeding with on the advice of the Attorney General. Mr. Norris: May I say to the Minister that the instrument was quite difficult to get hold of? Dr. Woods: I will get copies as soon as I have concluded because this is the only one I have and I need to refer to it. I am sure the Library has copies from yesterday. The main issue raised concerned society and the way it is developing. Many practical measures are taken in a developing society and our society is developing and changing. We are becoming a more multi-cultural society and, in a way, this motion is a reflection of that. Senator Norris raised the question of the Muslim school, and I believe it was raised earlier also. We now have a Muslim school but we do not have a school for training Muslim teachers, so that is something that may come soon enough. Under section 12 of the Employment Equality Act, 1998, any group can come forward to seek training in that way. That answers the question raised by Senators Norris and O'Meara. On the question of the numbers, that is an option. It is an enabling provision. If the college finds that it only has 24 students it can bring in others but it will have a total of 32 for the next three years. That is why I said that at the end of the three years it will come back for review. In fact, they may have more students than that in total but at least it can work on the 32 figure for the present. It is a practical measure and, as Senators Ormonde and Keogh said, it is a recognition of the ethos and an assurance that ethos can continue in training and that the trained people can filter out into society. As I said earlier, they filter out into various directions after that anyway. I thank Senators for their support. Mr. Norris: Has anybody been disbarred? Acting Chairman: We are not dealing with Committee Stage, Senator Norris, however----- Dr. Woods: No. Question put and agreed to.