Mr. N. Dempsey: (Education Minister)

I am conscious of the issues raised by the Deputy. Lucan is the fastest growing area in the country and, as a result, there has been a marked increase in the demand for primary school places in Lucan, particularly in the south Lucan area in the electoral division of Lucan-Esker. In order to meet this demand, my Department has taken steps to increase the capacity of existing primary schools in the area concerned by way of the provision of permanent and temporary accommodation.

Building projects have recently been completed at Scoil Áine junior school and St. Thomas's senior school to increase the capacity of each of these schools to 16 classrooms. Construction of the new Lucan Educate Together national school will be finalised for September 2003. The capacity of the school will be 16 mainstream classrooms and an autistic unit. My Department is also arranging for the installation of a prefabricated unit at Archbishop Ryan national school. This unit will be installed over the summer and will be available for September.

With regard to accommodation for Griffeen Valley Educate Together national school, my Department has instructed the property management section of the Office of Public Works, which acts on behalf of the Department regarding site acquisitions generally, to enter into negotiations with the owners of the site reserved for primary school purposes in Griffeen with a view to acquiring the site. However, at this stage, it is unlikely that the site will be available for the forthcoming school year. My Department is currently in communication with the board of management of Griffeen Valley Educate Together national school with to a view to arranging alternative accommodation, as an interim measure, for September 2003. Primary provision in the Lucan area and, in particular, south Lucan will continue to be monitored by my Department.

Mr. Gogarty: The population of Lucan south increased by approximately 7,000 to 21,000 between 1996 and 2002. The situation is at crisis point. I will have to continue drawing attention to this because the Minister's answer is not satisfactory. Griffeen Valley Educate Together was banking on getting that land but if there is humming and hawing about having to get an alternative site, there will be no clarity for the many people who are waiting to get their children into the school.

The building at Scoil Áine and St. Thomas's is welcome but those schools are in Esker. There is a major problem. If a child is a Catholic or a Traveller in Lucan south, he or she has a better chance of getting into school. If the child is non-Catholic, and this is an area where a large number of people are from various ethnic and religious backgrounds, he or she cannot get into Archbishop Ryan school because of the priority system. That is fair enough, given that it is a Catholic school, but the multidenominational school, Lucan Educate Together, is full and Griffeen Valley Educate Together has no clarity about its future. The Church of Ireland school, St. Andrew's, recently got sanction for works but it is still vastly overcrowded.
A task force is required. Will the Minister consider setting up such a task force to deal with these schools? Will he provide funding to allow Archbishop Ryan school become a junior and senior school and allow Griffeen Valley Educate Together school to secure its land sooner rather than later? The Minister is aware of this crisis but I will continue to raise it until it is resolved.

Mr. N. Dempsey: This is the fastest growing area and the figures quoted by the Deputy are correct. The population has increased by 7,500 to 21,785. I outlined what the Department has been doing to try to meet the immediate problem and we will continue to do that. An interim solution has been proposed for September 2003 and I hope that will give us the breathing space to solve the problem for Griffeen Valley Educate Together during the next 12 months.

I want to deal with a number of angles regarding this subject. In doing so, I wish to highlight some of the contributions which Government spokespersons or backbenchers have made to the debate. One of the first I noticed was that of Deputy Eoin Ryan who said that the Bill signals a fundamental change in our appreciation of the importance of research and development as an element of national infrastructure and that, in concert with other initiatives by the HEA, the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, it aims to put us firmly on the map as a research performer. If it does signal such a change, it has been a long time coming. We have a lot of catching up to do in that context and it is not good enough to simply set up a body which is, at present, operating on an interim basis as a sub-board of Forfás and will, through the Bill, be established as a separate legal entity. It is not enough to establish Science Foundation Ireland unless some of the other parts of the equation are included.

The stated aim of section 7(1) of the Bill is to create a standard of excellence in oriented basic research, to significantly develop our capability to conduct research by attracting world-class researchers to Ireland, and to have these scientists conduct the basic research on which future technologies will be built. There is a major flaw in that aim. Ireland has among the lowest level of indigenous research and development investment throughout the EU whereas Finland has the highest. It is no surprise, therefore, that Finland has a much more successful indigenous enterprise level. Nokia, a home-grown Finnish company, is a world-class brand which has taken over the mobile phone market and other aspects of telephony. Ireland does not have many home-grown heroes and where we do, they seem to be hubs of US multinationals.
I have a lot of respect for US multinationals. In a previous incarnation, I worked as a business journalist for manufacturing, research and development and IT magazines. I had the opportunity to visit many multinational companies, some US owned, some European owned and a few which were Irish owned. The Irish companies were generally smaller IT companies trying to blaze a trail in the software area, and some where quite successful in that. I no longer work as a journalist and am trying to be a Deputy. However, I worked full time in the field of journalism from 1992 until I became a councillor in 1999, and only gave up journalism completely in 2001 in the run-up to the general election. Over the period of my work in journalism, I noticed a sea change in the economy and the boom which was created. During the debate on this Bill, there was banter from Deputies on both sides of the House regarding who was responsible for the boom.

Every party that has been in Government can take some responsibility for the boom as much as the laissez-faire principles of the most recent Governments. In many ways, it was the IDA, learning the lessons of the past in trying to attract research and development and overseas industry to Ireland, that created the boom and the skilled workforce enabled us to meet the economic conditions those companies required. However, we have now moved on and may not have a similar boom for 50 years. Deputy Harney constantly tells us that we must move forward, add value and become more innovative in our approach.
The Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) Bill is welcome in many ways. However, it has a narrow focus on IT and biotechnology, whereas it could reach out further and create the kinds of conditions that would enable indigenous research and development to thrive. There are many entrepreneurs in Ireland who, if given the opportunity, would be able to make a significant economic contribution.
I am from the 1980s generation, which used to dance to the Human League, Culture Club, Wham and other bands that people laugh at now, and what I remember from that decade is high unemployment. Many people in my peer group - , friends, relatives and friends of friends - studied some form of science-based subject, but were forced to emigrate because there were not enough jobs. Even when the jobs became available, to these people's shock and horror many of them found that, despite their qualifications, they were doing bit jobs. They were fitting into a slot for a multinational company which wanted to take a modular approach to industry and research and development. These people were usually over-skilled for the jobs they were doing and, while they welcomed being able to work, earn money and invest at home, it drove others away because they were not able to get the right job in order to set up a home base and earn what they felt was their worth.

The next generation has now come on and, up to recently, people have expected to earn huge sums in software development, for example. They can click their fingers and name their salary, perhaps saying they have received a better offer from a Canadian company, and such salaries rose rapidly. Now that the economy is a bit more tetchy, people can no longer command these salaries. It is a welcome lesson that such people cannot get what they want, because a certain generation grew up thinking this is how it is, whereas some of us have had to go through life the hard way. A little hardship is good for everyone, but we do not want to see this well-educated generation leaving the country and staying away. We do not want Deputy Brian Lenihan following in his late father's footsteps by saying that this island is too small for all of us. Nonetheless, it will go that way unless we are able to offer a true scientific community.
I recently joined Science Foundation Ireland's friends of science group and I have one of its glossy brochures with me. I have met Mr. Harris, who is doing a good job. I do not want to denigrate any of the individuals involved in Science Foundation Ireland. They are doing a good job, even though the foundation has not yet been established on a statutory basis. Clearly, more needs to be done outside the scope of this Bill for it to work and the Green Party cannot have confidence in the Bill in the absence of those other measures.

An interesting magazine cutting was included with Science Foundation Ireland's brochure, the headline of which reads: "Ireland's new NSF-inspired funding agency has more money than scientists had dared hope for." In one sense that is welcome, because science has not received money in the past. However, while some of the new measures are welcome, unless we encourage people to study science subjects at secondary and third level and remain in the country, we will have a problem. This goes back to what the Minister said about Ireland being a value-added economy. If one wants to add value, there is no point in totally kowtowing to the multinationals.

We may be engaged in setting up successful research departments in many of the colleges and integrating them with such companies but, in many cases, it suits the companies' own ends because they operate on a modular basis in that they want particular sections of projects to be executed in Ireland, in consultation - via modern telecommunications - with people based in Canada, the US and the Far East. In these cases, everyone is part of the team and the Irish contribution is essential. This keeps people in the country and contributes to our scientific community. However, in the long term, we must facilitate indigenous research and development to a far greater extent for any decline in the economy. There is talk of a recovery and I heard a journalist talk about a recovery in 2008 because of the Olympic Games, which goes to prove that economics is a social science, based on social interaction. Therefore, there is no way of knowing what way the economy will go. If the Government said tomorrow that house prices were going to crash, and enough people believed it, house prices would crash. The trouble with economics is that it is not predictable. However, people's response to the economic cycle is predictable. If one is able to respond positively to a cycle when times are bad, the impact will be minimised and, when things are good, one will reap the rewards.

My colleague, Deputy Eamon Ryan, whose brief covers this Bill, and I are not confident enough is being done to invest in science in order to ensure we reap the rewards. As I said earlier, the Bill has a narrow focus of ICT and biotechnology. Comments are frequently made about Green Party members being Luddites and that we wish to return to the year dot and start from scratch. It is interesting, therefore, that Green parties throughout the world, including ourselves, are to the fore in promoting scientific research. We are trying to make it ethical and environmentally sound and we have certain concerns in relation to biotechnology and genetic engineering but, on the whole, being environmentally-conscious and a friend of science goes hand in hand.

There are many things which science can offer which can also help society. I do not want to refer to too many clichés, but one must examine the potential of wave and wind power off our coast. Studies have already been carried out off the coast of Scotland which indicate that four times as much energy as is required by the UK can be produced purely through wave power. I have no doubt that the same is true of the west coast of Ireland and I do not see why the Government does not increase its investment ten-fold in this area. As we have seen before with oil exploration, the Government has a carrot and stick approach to these companies. They will not drill if the penalties are too great and the Exchequer will not earn much if they strike black gold. The same applies to gas, although to a lesser extent.
If we invest in research and development, we have the potential to play a leading role in terms of the development of wave technology. We could be an energy exporter in that field. However, the question is whether or not the Government will invest significant funding in that area. I think not. I do not think the commitment is there, because that would be too visionary. So far, the policy seems to have been to get jobs from the multinationals, but create the Irish jobs through sub-contractors - let the suppliers to the multinationals be the indigenous job creators rather than the Irish innovators.

Perhaps it is a social issue, maybe we still have an inferiority complex. When Bob Geldof was trying to set up his own business in the 1970s, he was asked by Conor Cruise O'Brien, "Is that it?", and told he had not a chance in hell because it would take too long. Bob Geldof went off to Canada, did some work and then came back and tried a totally different tack. We know he made it and we recognise the contribution he has made.

Following recent economic success, we should have the confidence to go past that and take risks. The Government should invest in risk because it is the basis of entrepreneurial activity, the safe option will get us nowhere. By investing in wave technology or rape seed oil, we could be self sufficient in our energy requirements - such scientific research is desperately needed. We could become a leading player in technology that would be home-grown in conjunction with the universities and those who are willing to establish colleges.

I know of one person who wants to set up an IT college in west Clare. Such people are looking for funding but do not always get it. We have, however, the likes of Media Lab, which is attracting a lot of foreign scientific knowledge but is not necessarily investing in our best and brightest. When Deputy Gormley was Lord Mayor of Dublin in 1994, instead of using the normal Volvo, he used a Volkswagen Golf that ran on home-grown material. If enough money was put into research in that area, it could be an economically viable material.

As Green Party education spokesperson, I am concerned about science in schools. People from the STEPS programme that attempts to involved people in engineering have made representations to the Joint Committee on Education and Science. They are doing a good job but unless there is investment to ensure every primary and secondary school has sufficient IT equipment and that every second level school has proper science laboratories, engineering will not come to the fore. People will not study science if it is seen as a difficult subject or if they cannot do it properly. That is part of the problem.

The investment needed to make Science Foundation Ireland a legal entity should be matched by proper investment in science in education because, as I said to the Minister for Education and Science, in relation to science, it is crucial.

A number of IT pilot projects were set up at primary level, including Wired for Learning, which involved piggy-backing on the IT expertise of American companies and putting something totally unsuitable to Irish culture into schools. In feedback, the schools said they were happy to get the computer equipment and adapted it to their needs because there was a shortage of equipment but that did not mean that Wired for Learning worked.

We should take the long-term approach when it comes to the development of science and invest at the front end of the cycle, even if money has to be removed from the special savings investment accounts, borrowed or, having chloroformed the Minister for Finance until after the budget, raised through increased taxation for higher earners. The money must be provided and spent now so the rewards can be reaped.

In the next economic cycle we will need a knowledge-based economy but it is not good enough to have a knowledge base that feeds into a module of a foreign company because eventually that knowledge base will exist in eastern Europe and Asia and the same thing that happened to our manufacturing will happen again. The only way to do this is for us to take control of our own destiny and invest in our own knowledge base alongside the excellent work being done with multinational companies.

While welcoming many aspects of Science Foundation Ireland, it is not enough. More needs to be done in indigenous research and development in forms of technology other than ICT and biotechnology and investment must be made at the primary and secondary levels.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Mr. N. Ahern):

I can give the Deputy the up to date position on the matter, but I cannot give him an answer to the specific question he asked.

The Universities Act 1997 provides a framework of legislation that is compatible with the role, function and operation of universities in modern society. The Act, which was the first Act of general application to all the university institutions since the foundation of the State, was a culmination of an extensive process of consultation and debate within and outside the Houses of the Oireachtas. The process began in 1992 with the publication of Education for a Changing World, the Green Paper on Education and was developed through the subsequent White Paper on Education, Charting our Education Future, published in 1995, which contained a commitment to legislate in this area.

Among the significant features of the Act was the provision for revised governance structures for the universities which ensure that all major stakeholders are represented on the university governing authority, the principal decision making body of the institutions. The establishment of more representative and democratic structures was also extended to the academic councils of the universities.

The Act also sets out a framework for interaction between the universities and central government. This framework strikes a measured balance between the institutional autonomy of the universities and the requirements of public accountability. The Act explicitly recognises the centrality of academic freedom and institutional autonomy to the mission of the universities, while addressing the obligations of the institutions in relation to equality of opportunity and access, quality assurance, the effective and efficient use of resources and the requirements of public accountability. The Higher Education Authority is given key functions in respect of these areas of the operation of the universities.

Within this overall framework, universities operate in a very public context and come within the scope of a vast range of legislative and other requirements such as the Ethics in Public Office Act, the Freedom of Information Act, as well as the full range of employee protection and industrial relations legislation that applies to all employers.

In November 2001, the Minister for Finance circulated a Code of Practice for the Governance of State bodies. The code aims to ensure that State bodies operate to the highest standards applicable in the interests of transparency and accountability. While third level institutions are not best described as State bodies, the Minister for Education and Science has taken the view that an adopted form of the Code of Practice for the Governance of State bodies should apply and the Deputy of Education and Science is working with the sector in producing a code of practice appropriate to third level institutions that will further re-enforce the good practice already exercised in the sector.

The Universities Act 1997, in addition to providing for strengthened governance arrangements at an institutional level, also provides a wider public interest protection in cases where the Minister for Education and Science is of the opinion that there are reasonable grounds for contending that the functions of a university are being performed in a manner which prima facie constitutes breach of the laws, statutes, or ordinances applicable to the university.

The Minister for Education and Science is aware that Deputy Gogarty has raised this issue previously in the context of a particular ongoing case involving a staff member in one university. The Minister does not propose to enter into comment on that case and it would not be appropriate for him to do so, particularly as his understanding is that it is still going through due process.

Mr. Gogarty: When that process is completed, will he send a visitor to the university?

Mr. N. Ahern:
The Minister is satisfied that all the legislative machinery of the State as it applies to employers generally, in respect of their obligations to staff, consumers and to public bodies in relation to best practice governance and accountability requirements, is applied and adhered to by the universities. The Universities Act goes further in terms of the particular governance arrangements that it provides for within the sector and in respect of the additional protection provided for in the role of the visitor and Minister where there is a prima facie cause for concern in relation to any of these matters.
In this context, I am glad to be able to assure the Deputy that all reasonable and necessary arrangements are in place for ensuring that universities exercise full compliance with all of the legislative and other requirements within which they operate on a daily basis.

Mr. Durkan: Fair play to him. I hope he does not take it back.

Mr. Gogarty: Deputies who give up their seats on principle should not be penalised for having such standards. At the very least, they should not be put at a disadvantage by the Minister's bribing of other Members of the Oireachtas. It would be fairer not to pay anybody and put the money towards education and health. I am being consistent in this regard because I called for a pay freeze for Members before Christmas - very few people took me up on this and some remarked that I should have given back my increase. I might be green in politics but I am not a total idiot and realise that we should all decline our increases together or not at all.

Mr. Durkan: Hear, hear.

Mr. Gogarty: I reserve the right to use the imbalance as a stick with which to beat the Government and any constituency rivals who feel they have received an offer that is too good to turn down. The headlines will read, "Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party, the PDs and Sinn Féin take bribes to give up double jobbing". Locally, they will read, "Joanna Tuffy takes bribe", or "John Curran takes bribe". Any representative who makes a financial killing by being bribed in respect of the dual mandate will be fair game. I call on the Minister to play a fair game and not to pay out the money or if it is paid, to pay it to all concerned. Then, perhaps, we could have an equal playing field. If no action is taken by the Minister, I reserve the right to let all hell break loose and let the electorate know exactly what is happening and exactly who has an unfair electoral advantage in the next general election.

Mr. Durkan: Money is the root of all evil.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Mr. N. Ahern): Under regulations made in 2002, all retiring councillors, whether they are Members of the Oireachtas or not, qualify for a gratuity on retirement subject to the conditions of the scheme as laid out in the regulations. These require a minimum term of qualifying service of three years, starting from 4 May 2000. The regulations were made in June last year and were notified to local authorities in that month. This notification included an information note specifically setting out the details and rules governing the scheme.

The scheme involves payment on retirement of a lump sum calculated as three twentieths of the current rate of representational payment for each year of service, that is, service since 4 May 2000, up to a maximum of 20 years of service. Subject to certain conditions, the gratuity is payable on a councillor's retirement on the basis of voluntary retirement, failure to be elected, death or ill health.
A three-year minimum service requirement attaches to the scheme, with service commencing on 4 May 2000. Thus, any councillor who resigned his or her local authority seat prior to the 4 May 2003 does not qualify for a gratuity. This is the clear position and it is in accordance with the conditions of the scheme as set out in the regulations and as made available to all councillors last year.
Members of the Green Party who resigned their local authority seats several months ago after the gratuity scheme regulations were made did so in the full knowledge that they would not qualify for a gratuity. They could have remained as councillors until 4 May 2003 and benefited from a gratuity. Under the existing rules, they would have had the required three years of service.

Mr. Gogarty: What about the top up?

Mr. N. Ahern: As I understand it, for some years it has been Green Party policy that its members do not hold a dual mandate and, consequently, some of its Deputies resigned their local authority seats last year. I have heard them take credit for holding this position, particularly when the dual mandate was being discussed in the Dáil recently. Moreover, never once did they question the matter or claim that they should benefit from the gratuity arrangements. They are trying to have it both ways.

Last February the Minister, Deputy Cullen, announced, in the context of the ending of the dual mandate, proposals for modestly improved gratuity arrangements for Oireachtas councillors in recognition of their contribution to local government.

Mr. Gogarty: It is not modest.

Mr. N. Ahern: However, this is subject to a minimum of three years of qualifying service, as applies for all other councillors. There has been nothing but openness and transparency in the gratuity scheme since it was developed. The same applies to the revised gratuity arrangements for Oireachtas councillors, which were announced last February. The Green Party has never been shy in proclaiming its opposition to the dual mandate and it is ridiculous that it is now trying to avail of the benefits in question.

Mr. Gogarty: I would prefer if they were not paid to anybody because they give-----

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Gogarty should allow the Minister of State to continue.

Mr. N. Ahern: The members of the Green Party made a choice to resign in full knowledge of the consequences. In some respects, I and all the Ministers of State who were appointed last year would wish Deputy Gogarty well in his campaign and partly agree with him. I was a member of a local authority for 17 years and I am not getting my gratuity because I was promoted last year - the Deputy is probably only a wet day in the council. I could also cry crocodile tears but-----

Mr. Durkan: It breaks my heart.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister of State, without interruption.

Mr. N. Ahern: I heard the Deputy saying on radio some months ago - he mentioned this tonight - that he is overpaid. I am glad the realities of life-----

Mr. Gogarty: We are overpaid.

Mr. N. Ahern: -----and the cost of literature have impacted upon him very quickly. Some people take years-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Gogarty is a new Member and should be aware that the Minister of State is allowed five minutes in which to reply. He is entitled to the same courtesy as the Deputy to make his contribution without interruption.