Thanto posted 03-22-99 04:49 PM            

I'm a recovering T&B'er, who has seen the light of the BnZ ride. I've spent time in the 190 (too un-forgiving in loops <g> ), and only this tour have spent some GREAT times in the 109. What I'm interested in hearing, is some tips on how to make the 109g REALLY boom.

Any suggested readings?

Thanks!

Thanto *Pale Riders Squadron*

"On a pale horse, Death does ride"

llbm_MOL posted 03-22-99 05:09 PM            

Dont turn a blind eye on the 109f brother!

Its more of a T&B plane and B&Z rapped up in one! I started flying the 109f while waiting for the p51d to come out on RPS and got to likeing it so much I have kept flying it even after teh stang is out )) The trick is to never take on anything above you that can climb as fast or almost as fast as you. Such as any of the spits, another 109, P38,F\f6f if its got good "e", a ki84. If any of these get on your 6 and you dont have "e" well....

Thats another story and it really depends on how good the pilot is as to weather you survive or not. My favorite trick is to get them in a circle climb below you. They will try and try to get a shot on you but wont be able to line up. They might get a lucky ping once in awhile but usually they shoot blanks.

You keep circleing till you see them start to stall then roll over and kill them while they hang there. Its beautiful when it works right. Their canopy is usually rt thee just put some rounds into it and BOOM! Pilot kill.

Nother thing the 109's do THE BEST is a hammerhead. I can do one in a 109 better than in a 38. I took out about 3 or 4 spits the other night in just one sorty by just doing hammerheads over them. They kept falling for it I kept doing it. Climb straight up looking over your wing to make sure you are going straight up till you hit around 100 IAS then kick full right rudder and keep the plane level by looking down your wing. You will still have good control over you airplane while he will be stalling out. Its VERY hard for the guy below to hit someone doing a hammerhead. If they do it usually only 1 or 2 pings. Cant think of anything else except FLAPS!! Use them if you have to turn! Neve do flat turns in a 109 or your meat! Take the fite verticle with lots of rolls if a spit is on low and slow. FLAPS!! Never more than 2 notches! ! is best and use them on and off never!! Never on all the time! Turn them on when at the top of a vert turn and stall horn blaring and off on the way back down to pick up "e"! Oh well hope this enough to get you started!

LLBM OUT!!

Morzy posted 03-22-99 05:36 PM            

Thanto, I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you

Seriouly though, for those interested in the 109, JG14 is looking to fill out our Adler (Eagle - 109s) flight. As Warbirds oldest and most renowned LW squadron there is a wealth of knowledge available in our training documents and through our regular training nights.

Here's the catch, it's proprietary so you have to join to get it

See ya up there,

--mz--

GK JG14

Member: Warbirds CM Crew

events@imagiconline.com

vadr

Member posted 03-22-99 09:30 PM            

Thanto, check the post on 109K tactics, both of the definitive texts on the subject are there.

Welcome to the club...

Hptmn. Vadr

Stab. / JG 27 'Afrika'

vadr@jg27.org

cabby posted 03-22-99 09:32 PM            

llbm's tips pretty much sum it up. 109's are effective in the 'scissors" too. Where 109's really shine are in Scenarios and the HA where there are reduced "neon signs", which not only makes it easier to sneak up on enemy planes but easier to gain separation from them as well.

Cabby

Maj(44th Spec. Ops. Squadron)

leonid posted 03-22-99 10:03 PM            

Thanto,

I strongly suggest you get in touch with nassko, a 109 experte that only flies via H2H. He is an excellent Croatian Bf109 pilot and I'm sure he would love teaching someone else about the plane he loves.

Nassko's ICQ: 33652441

Kobra closing fast

Bears down upon the messer

Two shells, one hit - gone

Leonid Polk.16.Gv.IAP VVS

www.oz.net/~guerrero/wb/

nassko posted 03-23-99 05:48 AM            

Thanks Leonid for your kind words

It is just so that many guys who have beaten me in HTH would disagree a bit about my experte status.

As of my opinion about 109, it can dictate any engagement with that climb ability. The things get somewhat nasty when Spit IX comes around. I can only hope that we get MW 50 or GM 1 for Gustav in next revision

Very helpful are 109 tactics written by IK, which can be found on his webpage (I believe the link is in 109k post).

nassko

P.S.

Achtung, HO Spitfire !

Lugnut posted 03-23-99 04:43 PM            

Good advise all. Being my fav ride I've learned how to die in style in the 109G Given that it hemmorages E by the bucket in the horizontal plane, it pays to keep a high vertical component to your turns and watch that G meter like a hawk, more so than in any other plane (wing loading constraints). Use plenty of horizontal separation *before* your booms so you can come up underneath your opponent and do a WEP zoom to re-assess the situation (and not pull Gs going past him after the pass).

Hartmann's Escape works well because the 109 will do some sweet things in a Neg-G environment (experiment offline with an external view ). I have found that with the Gustav I can do a symmetrical (little rudder inout required)outside Immelman at speeds lower than I could otherwise do upright(!!!) This helps if you get a con right on your ass, and willing to follow your barrel rolls. Go over a couple of times, get inverted, then push the stick all the way forward. Ive had a couple of people try to follow and go "WTF!" when I completely dissapear and wind up D20 and disengaging before they reaquire me (of course you risk getting your ass shot off too, so its a bit of a trade off).

PS be kind to your rudder, he is your best friend in certain slow speed situations.

Lugnut III/JG54

http://www.monmouth.com/~mwatkins/index.html

Stiglr

Member posted 03-23-99 07:13 PM            

Hey, thanks for that tip, lugnut, gonna have to try that one!!!!!

My normal advice for the 109G driver is....either get a 109F or wait for a K. I absolutely *hate* the 109G, I think it's the worst fighter in the set. Here's why:

It is sluggish and handles sloppily. The worst shock in the world is to fly the F in earlier RPS and then "upgrade" to a G. The rudder flops around and requires constant attention, especially in scissors. It just....won't....roll....like the 109F when you need it to. And it seems to "wallow" in midair if you have to change your approach to a situation. If flying the 109F is like wielding a rapier or foil, the 109G is like swinging a huge two-handed sword.

The guns are nice and it has some speed, but overall, I'd rather have a nice, crisp-handling 109F under me than this pig. If we ever get the missing nitrous oxide boost, I'll give Gustav a try again; otherwise forget it.

Jagdgeschwader Fuenf Eismeer "The Hellspawn from Herdla"...one of a select few historically-based Luftwaffe squadrons, flying principly in the HA, SL, WW and other organized events.

Kodiak posted 03-23-99 07:47 PM            

FWIW I love all the 109s but actually prefer the 109G.

Go figure.

Kodiak III./JG54

cabby posted 03-23-99 10:02 PM            

Stig, i prefer the 109g or g6r6. The Franz' guns are just too weak, tho it is a sweet handling aircraft. Like Lugnut sez, watch that g-meter.

Cabby

Maj(44th Spec. Ops. Squadron)

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 03-24-99 07:50 AM         

Best tip for the 109 IS..... (drum roll), FLY WITH A WINGMAN IN ANOTHER 109!!!!

Seriously, because of its climbrate, 109 tag teams are a blast and VERY effective. As long as both of ya are flying in the vert, it only becomes a matter of time before the enemy will lose his E and yet STILL try to chase you up into your dreaded spiral climb/sustained climb, at that point, your wingie see's a nice slow tgt and promptly blows him to tiny pieces muahahaha!!!

I dont use any "fancy" tricks (cuz I dont know any hahahaha!!) but instead fly smart (ie...attack with advantage, use the vert, break off to regrab alt when needed, etc...) but I WILL try that inverted immel hahaha, that sounds GREAT!! thanks for that one!!

My 109 of choice is ye olde gustav! I consider her a "softer" version of the k version. Like the k version, she's got great guns but you can actually get good deflection shots with em, and she's pretty fast. Sure the F model is nimble, but its gun package just doesnt fit my style.

Best last ditch defense move I know is the hartmann escape, but sometimes I have to do a few of em to totally shake an nmy.

lazs posted 03-24-99 09:50 AM            

As a LW opponent, I have what I think is a valid tip for 109 (or any LW) ac.

Allways maintain the proper "alt./distance to friendly ack ratio". You must be at the proper height to make it to your own ack in a dive. Idealy, you should be just reaching compressability as you get down to the deck and be just within friendly ack range. Use this tactic any time that it looks like you may be confronted by a co E opponnent in any other plane. Alternately, you can do as the real LW pilots did and just bail.

lazs

DGSBDY posted 03-24-99 10:48 AM            

Until very recently I flew the 109's exclusivley during the entire ToD. The "outside Immelman" was one of my favorite tricks and worked more times than I could count, although I always tried to go offensive from there, and vs more than one bandit, oh well(shrugs). Began flyin 190's and all that watchin the G meter in the 109

really payed off.Try the move in a FW and you end up spinning right side up and out of control usually after redding out. You will die a great deal in the 109 at first but the real benefit is the experience you get at assessing the other guy's "E". The spiral climb works against anything, just remember go the opposite way if you think he's a spit XIV as his torque is in the opposite direction. You must balance the spiral between the vertical and the horizontal and drift in either direction as the situation arises.

The easiest way to consider the 109's strategy is:

109f= dart in and use it like a mosquito with rapier.

109g= sneak up behind and hit him in the head with a 2x4 when he's not looking and runaway.

109k= sneak up behind and hit him in the head with a 15 lb. sledgehammer when he's not looking and run like hell. If you miss with that first swing of the sledge, oh well

Stiglr posted 03-24-99 02:00 PM            

What is this, "watch the G-meter" stuff? The plane doesn't HAVE a G-meter. None of them do, do they?

Are you guys referring to the climb-rate meter????

Jagdgeschwader Fuenf Eismeer "The Hellspawn from Herdla"...one of a select few historically-based Luftwaffe squadrons, flying principly in the HA, SL, WW and other organized events.

Stiglr posted 03-24-99 02:07 PM            

The Franz has plenty of guns to get the job done, unless your target happens to be a heavy buff. And that's only because the otto will light up your engine before you can pump in enough damage to down the buff.

If you wait until you get a Hartmann solution (inside d2), you'll find that the tightly grouped 20mm and 2 MGs of the 109F make short work of *any plane*, including P47s, FWs, Corsairs, anything. A kill usually takes 8 - 15% of my ammo. With my usual 13 - 20% gunnery, 3-, 4- and 5-kill Franz sorties are normal, unless I make a dumb mistake and die with my guns full (and I do that far too often!).

For my money, I'll take the "light" guns and nimble maneuverability of Franz over a piggish, sloppy handling dog like Gustav any day.

Bino posted 03-24-99 02:31 PM            

Um, Stiglr, the 109 has a G-meter. Look at this screenshot from the iMOL site. Just to the left of the fuel gauge. (Ignore the artificial horizon, as this is a composite shot.)

Stiglr posted 03-24-99 04:11 PM            

That's a meter that displays your rise/sink rate (in KM/min) isn't it???? It's not a G-force meter.... is it?

Lugnut posted 03-24-99 04:37 PM            

Nyet, mein Heir, that is a G-Meter, the ROC meter is to just to the left of the G meter (or 2 to the left of the fuel gauge). Just don't ask me what the ROC meter displays in, I think its meters/min x 100, but I was never sure. Anyone else know for sure?

As much as I like the G, I can't get a good handle on the K series. That 30mm cannon frustrates the crap out of me. It was simply not intended to be an air superiority aircraft. When the LW introduced it at wars end, they were mainly concerned with doing HOs on B-17s not dicing it out in high-G deflection contests.

Gimmee a 109K with a G gun package an Lug will be a happy boy =p

Lugnut

Kats posted 03-24-99 05:04 PM            

Actually lug, that's what MO is giving us for the 109k next vers- a 20mm cannon So rejoice, your wish comes true!

As far as 109 tactics are concerned, TBH I fly all planes the same way whether it is a spit, 109, or 190 - I use the same tactics. It's when your in shit and need to get out of Dodge that you need to know specific performance advantages of each type.

Having said that, plane choice is a matter of personal preference. Personally I like the 109 because it has cannons that are mounted in the airscrew (I don't like slugs, and wing guns) - the pilot doesn't red out and black out so frequently like in a Spit, and the 109 is more manouverable than the Fw190.

So I think any principles that you have picked up in your other rides apply to the 109 and vice versa. (IMO)

Stiglr posted 03-24-99 06:54 PM            

hat *is* a G-Meter, the ROC meter is to just to the left of the G meter (or 2 to the left of the fuel gauge).

D'oh, what a dweeb I am. You know, I never even NOTICED that????? As many sorties as I've flown in 109s and I flat out missed it!!!!! I frequently check the climb/sink meter, but have been totally "spacing" on the G-meter.

I MUST be getting old.....whew....

cmos posted 03-24-99 07:31 PM            

stiglr: dweeb! even I knew about the g-meter.

However after our conversation at FTUSA you'll probably be pleased to know that I logged a nice little 13-kill streak in the Franz earlier this TOD. I'm getting to really like that little vogel

cmos

Pale Horses Squadron

"and it's rider's name was death ..."

vadr posted 03-25-99 09:13 AM            

Thanto,

While I'm not the best 109 driver in WB (by a long shot), if you'll look me up in the MA, I'll be glad to let you ride with me or fly my wing.

Most of the 109 marks require altitude and pilot patience to be effective. The F is a decent dogfighter, but that makes for some very bad habits in the other variants. Emil is my favorite, nothing can touch it in the early RPS if it's flown correctly.

Hptmn. Vadr

Stab. / JG 27 'Afrika'

vadr@jg27.org