keiun posted March 20, 1999 10:08 AM            

Hi all,

So theres an enemy on my 6, Im at 100 ft, and Im thinking, "Oh fiddlesticks, Im going to die" (or something like that ). But then I see "keiun 6 omw" in the text buffer and think "woohoo, Im saved".

Now would be the time to set up a drag for my friend. But how exactly do I do that then?

I dont want to fly straight cos Im dead if I do. Climbing would be suicide. I generally just continue evasives and hope my friend is a better shot that my enemy.

And on this board Im always seeing, "most people dont know how to drag properly". So spill the beans, experten, how do I do that?

All suggestions gratefully accepted

keiun

buile posted March 20, 1999 11:36 AM            

Hello,

Well, you need a little bit of room between yourself and the bandit so that you are not easy pickins. Generally, i'll try to fly in a curve with energy-conserving jinks to bring myself close to my comrade. I try to pay attention to my comrade's energy state to figure how best to set up the drag so that he can keep his energy if he has more speed, or to allow him to close if he is slower.

Usually your wingman is coming in high and fast. That makes him unable to turn tightly with you. The end result i try to get is that as my wingie is closing into firing distance, he is flying straight on the bandit's 6. Of course, it is best to set up your wingman so that when he gets on the bandit's 6, the wingman is closer to the bandit than the bandit is to you.

Dragging a bandit in a high-deflection pass across the nose of your wingman doesnt do any good. He only gets a low probablity snapshot, no chance of saddling up on the bandit, and will blow any speed he has attempting to do so.

The best way to learn i think is by being a "bagger" yourself. Pay attention to what the "dragger" did that made it exceedingly hard for you to clear his six. Usually it has to do with constantly turning into you, instead of turning away from you at the correct moment.

Hope that helps. Any other views on drag and bag?

buile-

avin posted March 20, 1999 03:39 PM            

Well, I'm one of the people that says most guys don't know how to drag properly.

In general, I'm not thinking of somebody with a bogie on his 6 in firing range. Typically, what happens is I see a lower countryman with a bogie on his long 6. I call "xxxx, 6, drag" as I dive towards the bogie. To my horror, my countryman immediately makes a hard break turn and gets embroiled in a turnfight. I zoom away and leave them to it.

The right thing to do here is to set the bogie up for me. Do *not* make a hard break turn - it will cost me all my e to saddle up, and I won't do it for most people. If you're out of firing range, simply extend away from me if I have the e to catch you. Else make a gentle turn so as to give me an intercept. If you can drag down-sun, that will help - he can't see me, but I can see him. As you see me closing, another nice touch if you have the e margin is to drag the bogie high so he gets slower. All these are easy to do if you're in no immediate danger, and a lot easier to do if you know your countryman is a good shot . The end result is usually one quickly dead bogie, and we both have more e and are better positioned for new threats. If you set up drags for me, you can trust me to return the favour.

There are other niceties. These involve keeping the bogie fascinated by making him think he has a shot, and that you haven't seen him. Slowing or zooming so he thinks he's closing helps. Making a pass on another bogie also helps - the first con thinks *you've* got tunnel vision .

What separates the men from the boys is what you do when the bogie is close to saddling up. Continous evasives are a bad idea - you're making it as hard for me as it is for him. You need to jink to spoil his shot, then extend in an unloaded dive for the critical 2 seconds I need for my shot, followed by another jink if necessary. Timing is everything. Again, if you make a hard break turn or enter continous scissors, I'm usually out of there. But in this situation if you decide you need to make the break, no hard feelings. It's your skin, after all.

What I'd recommend doing is watching somebody like hoof or redant, drag queens extraordinaire . I can get my quota of kills just following drag queens around, and it often seems unfair to me that they don't get credit for the kill. After all, they're setting the cons up. I just pull the trigger.

avin

funked posted March 22, 1999 12:23 PM            

What Avin said!

If the bandit is saddled up and firing, you've got to do what you can to survive and hope the friendlies are good shots.

If he's not quite saddled up yet, just make sure you fly so that the friendly has a chance to intercept without blowing his E. Also heading toward home is a good idea. If I'm close to home I'll take a lot more risks to help a guy.

The main thing is to realize when you need to stop thinking about going offensive and concentrate on setting up a good shot for the friendly.

It's just like basketball. You can try a crossover and 360 spin move trying to beat your man to the hole, and he steals it and takes it in for a layup. Or you can be less agressive, make him think he's got you then dish to a cutting teammate for a dunk.

Kodiak posted March 22, 1999 03:33 PM            

Try to give your friend the best angle possible to clear you. The absolute WORST thing you can do is fly co-alt directly at them. Do it just like Avin says.

Once your friend gets close is where it gets scary. If the bad guy is close enough to fire use slips and rolls to foil his shot. Maybe throw in a snaproll or two...just keep the bad guy in as straight a line as possible.

BTW, I usually only drag to people I know and know their abilities. If its a stranger I usually fend for myself. Dragging is an excercise in trust. I need to know my buddy is a better shot than the average arena dweeb.

Kodiak III./JG54

Jekyll posted March 22, 1999 05:54 PM            

Avin said it perfectly.

One of the strangest experiences I've ever had in WB occurred when I was trying to clear a fellow countryman. I'm in a Fw190.. he's in a Spit 9 being attacked by a Zeke.

I call for the drag, since I'm screaming in on him with 200kts overtake, at which time the spit goes into a series of max G reversals, loops, spiral dives etc... all of which were absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for me to follow in my 190.

It looked as though the Spit was more intent on dragging the Zeke onto MY 6 than surviving the engagement himself.

The inevitable result? The spit pilot died.. then called me up on private to bawl me out for not saving him

keiun posted March 23, 1999 06:15 AM            

Thx guys,

It just goes to prove how much calmer you all are when flying WBs. I find it hard to keep up with whats happening with the bad guys, let alone setting him up for a friendly. Ill try the suggestions though.

Funked: Sorry mate, dont understand. Hole? Crossover? Dunk? Try a proper sport, like cricket

keiun

ama posted April 14, 1999 05:58 PM            

Keiun,

Let me try to make this simple without getting into (sort of irelavant) extension discussions.

From the other excellent posts, we know that simply bringing your persuer closer to your wingman (if indeed you even have a wingman) isn't enough - you need to try to offer your wingman a clean, 2-second shooting opportunity to kill that guy. Or to put it another way, you need to (sort of slowly) "drag" your persurer in front of your wingman's gunsight and keep him there. That's why its called "dragging."

A good way to do this is as follows:

Say you are being chased and you see a wingman (or just a countryman) d30 in front of you. He says "I'm coming!" on the radio. Head directly towards him. At d10 or d15 from him or so, bank hard into a 90 degree turn, so your flight path is at a right angle to your wingman's. Then keep flying straight away, performing small jinks to avoid fire. BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE, KEEP FLYING PERPENDICULAR TO YOUR WINGMAN'S ORIGINAL FLIGHTPATH!!!

Your persuer will either get out of there (if he is smart), or he will foolishly follow your turn, banking with you.

All your wingman now has to do now is bank 90 degrees in your direction, and he will find himself d3 to d6 away from your persuer, all ready to saddle up and fire.

At this point, you have dragged correctly, and it is your job to NOT start turning hard, which will spoil your wingman's shot and ruin your whole day. Just perform small jinks to avoid tracers and hope your persuer is too busy trying to shoot you to jink away from your wingman.

And that is a drag. If you have a buddy or a squad, I suggest spending a night practicing this important manouver.

Virtually,

Llama

Jekyll posted April 14, 1999 07:51 PM            

As a result of seeing this post, Phoenix Squadron recently did a training session on dragging.

The basic rules are:

1. If the sun is low in the sky, drag down-sun if at all possible

2. The clearing fighter has control of the engagement... FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS! After all, if you need someone to clear you, it means you haven;t been able to shake that guy on your own. You'll probably die anyway, so what have you got to lose?

3. Don't panic!

4. If you're the clearing fighter, shoot early and shoot often Your primary responsibility is clearing your buddie's 6, NOT getting a kill for yourself. If you wait until you're in perfect position it may be too late!

5. Gentle turns, barrel rolls, neg G jinks are what is called for. Voice comms are a real advantage here.

Gryf posted April 14, 1999 09:11 PM            

You are the one under seige, have a bandit or two on yer 6 and need help. You call out heading and alt along with speed. If You are short on time, 120 8K 240 works just fine. Your job is finished with the intercept except for the part of staying alive.

The rescuer then tells you turn left to 270 go low. You turn left to 270 (even if it is NOT the most effiecnt turn, he is controlling the fight right now and may need the turn to inprove his position)and go lower, If your rescuer can see you at all you let him direct you. He tells you where and when to turn. If you start taking hits, obviously manuver as best you can, but if you want to survive you listen and work with him.

You cannot learn this in the offline environment, it is impossible and all the reading on the subject is nice, but not very viable till you HAVE to do it. Your assumption in your original example is that only one con is following and you can reverse and get seperation. Anyone who flies WB can tell you that is a 50/50 chance. More often than not it's a gang rape on the low guy.

Keiun: There are plenty of good tips here. I think the most important for the dragger is to keep manuvering to a minimum and to fly across the flight path of the rescuer (perpendicular) that gives him a great opportunity to setup a shot. In fact best option for that is to get perpendicular to your wingman and then do a shallow turn in his direction OF FLIGHT. If he is on your left, D9 and coming to help do a 45 degree turn to the right to give him a low angle shot.

Above all remember that he is doing you a favor. You got yourself in a spot and you need his help. Do what he says, do not jeapordize his ass also.

Last night the Rogue Gryffons were FLying at F19 and F12. When I checked score, we had destroyed 22 AC for the loss of 7 of our own. I personally Flew 5 sorties with an average of 1 kill per sortie with no deaths. That is because we used the above techniques, and I had some marvelous squaddies to keep my 6 clear. Do not be deceived into thinking combat pilots are solo. If you lose your wingman you lose 75% of your offensive force. Never forget that. Never put your buddy in a bad spot and try to guide them out.

Warbirds is based on teamwork. Anyone who says otherwise is uninformed.

VK posted April 15, 1999 12:56 AM            

I just love to rephase things so here goes

what you are aiming to do to the guy on your 6

1.Avoid being shot -rapid vector changes utilizing any superior flight characteristics your a/c has over your opponents,ie:roll tate turning ability,climb rate ,acceleration,ect

2.Reduce the energy state of your opponent-get him relatively low and slow

3.put your opponent on a vector to allow easy interception-usually somewhere in the 90 degree angle off tail postion of the wingman

4. even with no wingman you can try to set him up for other countrymen in the area .Do you job right on 2 and 3 and they can hardly resist the easy kill

Spitfire posted April 15, 1999 03:02 PM            

=Gryf=,

you said:

"Your assumption in your original example is that only one con is following and you can reverse and get seperation."

I said nothing of the sort. I said that if you can find an escape route to extend take it. A neutral merge is best. The example below is actually offensive because is places the opponent on a predictable flight path for your wingman. Figure 2-18 in Robert Shaws book is similar.

"Another thing to think about is an escape route, and the best time to escape is on a neutral pass (parallel but opposite headings)

±30º. Turn the in twocircle direction (Nose to Tail) to keep angles neutral to aviod giving the target turning room for a lead turn, then push forward on the stick to 0g, and extend. Pushing to 0g is called "unloading" or "0 load factor." This reduces Induced Drag (drag created by the wings) and greatly increases acceleration."

"I think the most important for the dragger is to keep manuvering to a minimum and to fly across the flight path of the rescuer (perpendicular) that gives him a great opportunity to setup a shot."

This is exacly what I mean by:

"The main idea is to make that bandit on your tail, fly a predictable flight path for an attack by your wingman, while keeping youself away from red-hot metal projectiles."

"A turn into your wingman is probably your best option, that will bring that bastard closer to him."

I do agree that communication is the key to a sucsessful Louce Douce team, but there are severe limitations when using text to communicate. The advent of Roger Wilco has greatly improved communications and I expect that that we will see more sucsessful 2 man teams in the arena.

There a numerous tactical doctrines out there and with training, and experience, they all can work. Tactics that are sucsessful for one man or group may not be sucsessful for another.

What can I say? I'm a George "Screwball" Buerling. I am very sucsessful flying alone

-spit-

Gryf posted April 15, 1999 05:30 PM            

Spitfire: I can see this discussion swirling round and round and not ending anytime soon. My only purpose was to post a note on how you can drag like Jwal described and that teamwork, not indivualism wins the day.

Avin made a wonderful post. Heck the thread scould have ended there. You post, while booksmart, ignored some fundamentals that most who fly in the main arena have come to accept.

1) If you need to drag the only separation you are gonna get is to run. There is no fancy nose to nose manuvering, you've done all that and lost so far. So you run like hell normally with the bandit just beyond shooting range, or just within shooting range. We all KNOW a neutral merge is a great time to separate. But if he gives me a nuetral merge why whould I run? I can turn it around and make it right. If he goes from advantage to neutral, I am winning. However, yes, know when you are losing. If you go from advantaged to neutral, you better bug out then, it's a bad trend that is tough to buck. If you were talking about *THAT* situation, then let it be know you started with an advantage.

2) If you setup your wingie for a Head-on shot (the "turn into your wingman" issue) Chances are he'll miss. Setup a perpendicular shot. Telling keiun to setup a good tracking shot is a no brainer, he knows that. Tell him HOW to do it. I find, and train, a perpendicular shot gives everyone the best chance of success.

And I think kodiac was asking you how many hours ONLINE you have flown. Not head to head, or offline. But online with 1,000's of people shooting at you. It really does put a different spin on the game if you have yet to try it. The main arena can take the hottest duelist and reduce him to a real fast kill.

Allow me to point out that this issue is by no means a slam on you and this post is not intended as one. But the intricacies of multiple man flying in this envornment is even beyond Shaws ability to describe very well. Visibility is restricted, kenistetic sense is non-existant and you never know if the guy your facing is a rank amatuer or one of them = = guys. Simply put the dynamic environment you are placed in is very difficult to explain, define and give answers to when you fly there daily. When you don't fly there at all the answers get very "bookish" and not very practical. Keiun could possibly read Shaw all day and grasp it until he sees it applied.

-jwal- posted April 15, 1999 08:39 PM            

-spit-

Prehaps you misunderstood me...

Being the E-fightin bozo I am, I have spent most of my years (yes from ver 1.1 too) in a drag situation. I have learned there 3 drag situations- Drag a pro, Drag a dweeb, and Drag a sucker. One can reverse on a Dweeb or just run him outta rounds then smoke him. On the down side dweebs don't hunt alone. A sucker is a pilot who will recognize the drag but still put him/herself in jepordy. A Pro will have a wingman or combat awareness enough to stay out of the drag. In my 3+ years there has only been 1 tecnique that works most of the time. A drag is a FLUID situation. Using a book definition ( all due respect to Bob) is not the best way. There is no "every time you get into this position" solution to a drag.

there have been times when I made it look like I was draging to help and had multiple cons disengage (hehe). Other times when nothing I could do but enjoy the free trip to earth. A drag by definition is asking for help. In order for the drag to succed, directions must be folowed unquestioningly.

Just my 2MOREcents

Spitfire posted April 16, 1999 02:00 AM            

=gryf=,

Thats funny, I find the arena easier then h2h(maybe because of the "lack" of team work), and yes I have flown online quite often dating back to 1995. Unfortunately, I can not afford it to play it as often as you do.

I am just stating my point of view and trying to help people visualise maneuvers. People want to know how to do something, not just be told what to do.

I do realise that there is no "every time you get into this position, do this" answer to peoples questions, but every fight boils down to basic principals, that if forgotten, can mean life or death.

Keiun wanted to know how we do something, like I said, you could come up with a million valid answers. I just wanted to piont out a situation that I have used sucsessfully many times. I've flown with -prop-, =eadg= and others online.

I do know what I am doing. Last time I was online, my score for the weekend was 100 sorties, 120 kills, 5 deaths, 2 bails. Jumpem and I had some nice sucsessful wing sorties.

If you look back I did not say the individualism wins the day, but I only pointed out that I think of myself first in a defensive situation before waiting for a wingman call.

-spit-

Jester posted April 16, 1999 03:47 PM            

*self proclaimed King of the Drag and Bag* and some fellow purps think so as well ..

that training doc is in the email hooli

---

this is a great question and one that is overlooked by everyone in wb.

proper drag will give you the advantage...yes you, the one with a con on your 6!.

why? because when done right you are really creating a disadvantageous situation for the con in back of you. its called turning the tables .

if someone says jstr 666 omw....it means ive seen this guy on my 6 for awhile now. that 6 call gives me some 'insurance or reference' that a friendly is 'near' by. ***just cause someone calls your 6 doesnt mean they will help you.

the first and foremost thing is to asses the situation ie: SA!.

-hows your horizontal & vertical seperation in reference to the con?

-whats your speed?

-is the con closing on you?-fast?

-where are the closest friendlys?

-where are the closest freindlys that you know will help you?

-where are the friendly's that "YOU" trust enough to get this bogey off your arse?

all that and more need to be answered within 20 seconds

heres the main idea: navigate and manuever in a way that the con A) cant get good shots on you (be it speed, rolling, etc.) B) this will keep em occupied and his attn. focused on you while you manuever towards your particular 'buddy for the moment'.

when done correctly you flip the tables in your favor even tho someone is on your 6. come fly purp and a few of my squaddies/purps can show you how its done. this kind of flying gives me a thrill and is a challenge, because you are seeing if this con has what it takes to match your manuevers. the ultimate is to reverse the fight in your favor 1 vs 1. not as difficult as it seems either.

next time ill explain specifically what i would do. these are just the