bino posted 01-28-99 03:05 PM ET (US)

Last night, while flying an Emil in the Blitzkrieg Scenario, I found myself thinking about a comment that wulfie/-wulf- made in here the other day about deflection shooting:

...if your aircraft is pulling few or no Gs when you make a high deflection shot, the only factor when it comes to landing hits is timing. Try to fly several seconds ahead of your opponent...

Last night offered me several opportunities to attempt to apply this, but I was only able to successfully do so for the very briefest of snapshots. My guesstimates about my target Spit/Hurri/Hawk's future position in the space/time continuum were not very accurate. My gunnery for the night: 13 hits out of 135 fired, no kills, no assists.

How did you high-percentage honchos out there improve your ability to estimate lead? Is it simply trial-and-error, a matter of making a very large number of attempts? Or is there some method that one can apply? All contributions gratefully received.

PS: Just for the record, out here in RL, I am pretty good at both trap and skeet shooting, so I do understand the basics.

wulf posted 01-28-99 03:44 PM ET (US)            

Just practice, and don't let the visual 'pings' deceive you.

For instance, when I pull lead to aim for the cockpit on an enemy aircraft, I almost always see the 'pings' strike near the tail of the target aircraft. Then, a second later, the aircraft explodes - but almost always as a result of a 'pilot kill'.

Remember that 90 degree crossing shots are not what I am always talking about as the end result of flying a few seconds ahead of the enemy. A good example - you are diving on an enemy who is in a left hand turn being chased by a friendly aircraft with a better turn radius. As soon as you see his wings start to level, it is a very safe bet that the enemy is going to reverse back to the right (probably in an attempt to make your buddy overshoot). So as you dive in, do not track the enemy aircraft - set up your pass so you will be wings level and ready to pull a tiny bit of lead (for minor aiming adjustments) as the enemy comes across your nose in a shallow right turn (shallow for you, hard for your pursuing buddy - by flying 2 or 3 seconds ahead of the enemy you reduce the effectiveness of his 'break turn' from your point of view).

Think of it this way - there are only so many things that bad guy can do. 3 of 4 won't work against the friendly pursuing him. You are setting up to kill him if he uses the 4th option.

As far as the 13 hits - no assists - no kills report goes, is it possible you were hitting with MGs only? Maybe, if this is the case, fire cannons only until you get the deflections/velocity thing worked out. The 2cm MG FF cannons on the Bf 109E-4 don't have the highest velocity. 13 cannon hits should get you at least an assist or two, more likely at least one kill.

I hope this helps.

Mike ('-wulf-', 2./JG 14)

funked posted 01-28-99 06:52 PM ET (US)            

Bino if you are good at trap I think it will come to you. I'm pretty fair with the Wingmaster myself, it's really the same thing.

With the low rate of fire and low muzzle velocity on the MGFF cannon in the 109E, I would not mess around with snap shots too much. Try tracking shots, like you do in trap/skeet where you keep the muzzle moving. I try snapshots with the 7.9mm MG's, but tracking shots only with the cannons.

If you are doing snapshots, you can do things like rolling your nose below the path of the target to give you a better view, then putting the nose into his path when it comes time to shoot.

I agree with wulf, you don't want to fire both sets of guns on the Emil together. Maybe if you have a slam-dunk shot from d2 on a nonmaneuvering target. Otherwise fire them separately, the muzzle velocities are just too different.

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

Kodiak posted 01-28-99 11:09 PM ET (US)            

While not a reply to Bino's question all this talk about trap and skeet brings up a good point.

To hit moving targets regularly with our trusty shotguns we MUST follow through on the swing. I wager that one of the main critical factors keeping newbies from joining the 20%+ crowd is lack of any follow through. The tendency to point the aircraft at a fixed spot in space, where the target will soon be, is just as strong in WB as in the field or on the range.

Keep that nose moving on the flight path :-)

Kodiak III./JG54

itmo Lelv24 posted 01-29-99 04:01 AM ET (US)            

ok

1.set mg tracer color to red. and cannon to yellow.because (atleast i do) u prooly lead unconsciously by seeing the yellow color.

2.i do this lag-watch,pull-lead,shortburst,back to lag thing. especially with low-velocity guns.

3.try doing the thing wulfie said, point ahead.. it also saves E and keeps u fast for fast egress and u dont have to pull so much so u dont have the risk to black out

btw. try coming in from a different plane of motion. this is tricky. but then u dont have to follow/lead him while he is under your nose. like when he is heading to your 2to3 oclock in front and below of you. dont roll to same plane and start tracking, but aim ahead and fly-through. if he pulls into you. u will lose the shot anyways. go hi. if he pulls away,he dies, very fast. and while this shot is more difficult to judge,

u have a VERY good visibility since u dont have to keep turning. and if u fly a plane with 6*.50 u can always "saw" a bit=)

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 01-29-99 04:50 AM ET (US)         

What range are we talking about here bino??

You are not alone as far as emil and poor gunnery sorties, if im not within about d2, I generally am wasting cannon rounds if i pull the trigger. I find those damn low velocity woosie cannons to be a royal pain in the arse and unless I have dead 6, or close to dead 6 shots, or within d2 tracking shots, I dont do so hot.

On the other hand, I can rip the hell outa nmy with high velocity cannons by taking those HIGH deflection snap shots. BUT, the gunnery percentage is NOT high because I use TRAPPING rather than TRACKING for most of them. I go for the kill as opposed to gunnery percentage, so I start farther out, D5 or so, and let out a nice burst which will usually cripple or kill nmy with the awesome firepower of something like the A8.

Since I bleed E like a stuck pig whenever I touch the stick hahahahaha!!! I do basically what wulfie suggests as far as anticipating where the nmy is GOING to, than I send him some 20mm and watch him fly through it. Its mostly experience and observation, BUT, a good way to get a feel for it is to experiment with a gunsite like docdooms doomsday sight.

The poor tracking aircraft (ie wurger ) will have to constantly deal with those nimble bastages who INSIST on turning away from your attack run...I tell ya, the nerve of some people. I expect this, and anticipate there break and its pretty easy to land a good crippling burst on em depending on your closure.

My gunnery percentage goes WAY up when I fly something that actually turns, but that is because I take the time to get stupid close before I fire, and use TRACKING gunnery primarily. It is very easy to estimate the lead required from D2-3 when you are tracking a nmy.

With very lethal weapons, like in the A8, trapping can land u hits on those tough deflection shots that are crippling and save you E.

With not so lethal weapons, or with a good turner, than tracking is a better option.

Practice and experience are the keys.

Hey....Nice cannons!

Idiamn

Inet posted 01-29-99 06:45 AM ET (US)            

The 109e4 is very difficult in deflection shooting. The cannon drop makes shots over d4 very hard, because you have to give the enemy so much lead that he gets under your nose. In combination with the short clip of the emil, i normally decide against it, pull up and set up another pass.

A nice training is firing both weapons (MG and cannon) seperate in offline mode to get a feel for them.

Inet

II. Gruppe Jagdgeschwader 3 "Udet"

Baal posted 01-29-99 07:28 AM ET (US)            

I've always had a fair bit of success with high deflection shots. Basically I fire with twice the amount of lead that I think I should.

B

Bino posted 01-29-99 09:53 AM ET (US)            

Thanks for all the replies!

Just FYI: My convergence in the Emil (or the A6M2, for that matter: virtually the same armament) is normally set to 250, and I never fire the cannons unless I'm in close, d3 or less. I normally use only the 7.9mm guns for a snapshot, unless I can get in very close. And I often use the technique mentioned in Shaw of putting my nose just slightly off the target, so I can keep him in view at either my 11 or 1 o'clock. Baal, thanks for the rule of thumb, I'll give it a try.

Thanks, you guys!

Bugjam posted 01-29-99 10:09 AM ET (US)            

"As far as the 13 hits - no assists - no kills report goes, is it possible you were hitting with MGs only? Maybe, if this is the case, fire cannons only until you get the deflections/velocity thing worked out."

I NEVER use mg's if I they're on the nose and cannons are in the wing! Exclude buffs, they're big targets enough.

Mg's are not going to bring me that kill, they only exaggerate the amount of "real" hits I've landed to the enemy. If use mg's and I see 10 flashes it may be that only onle flash is caused by cannon and I've just wasted my cannon ammo. If mg's are off I know I missed the target and take more lead in future.

This has resulted to get me far more kills and less assists. And my gunnery % has went up to 16-17 from 12 ... an they're cannon hits not any pathetic mg's hits that only warn your enemy, not hurt him.

Try it, it really works

------------------

Bugjam, VMF-58 Wildcards

Daff posted 01-29-99 10:19 AM ET (US)            

... an they're cannon hits not any pathetic mg's hits that only warn your enemy, not hurt him.

My mg hits seems to kill just fine..cannons are for wussies!

Daff

(Jug-driver :P)