Posted by: Walt (-buhd-) Barrow

Message: I have read many posts which refer to the phenomenon of "going vertical" with someone. While I have some ideas about what that could mean (but we can't talk kinky here!), could someone out there point me to some info on what this means? War stories would be acceptable.

Thanks!

Walt (-buhd-) Barrow

Posted by: Doc.

Message: You will (I see already) get many good replies from folks to assist in learning the E fighting game. However, I notice that one area of "going vertical" has not been covered in the replies so far.

Most people naturally grasp fairly early that turning the plane involves banking the wings and yanking back on the stick. However, apart from hi and lo yo-yos, which include *some* vertical element (going up or down) in the manoeuvre ...few realise just how effective the vertical can be in making a HORIZONTAL vector change, and in particular when flying a plane with poor sustained turn rate in the horizontal. (such as the Fw190)

Imagine that your manoeuvre to change directions is a hula hoop. It's radius is (at it's tightest) the size of the hoop (diameter) and yet, perhaps you need a tighter turn than the plane can make. This happens a LOT in the Fw190 :)

If you have excess E to burn (lots of speed) you can pull the nose and complete what is known as a high yo-yo. If you are lacking in speed, you can use the nose low (low yo-yo) to accellerate during the turn. The reason these vertical elements of the turn shorten your radius (in horizontal distance) is because, if you should take the hula hoop I spoke of as your turning arc, and look down upon it from above, the flat hula hoop diameter from one side to the other will be quite a bit greater than the "tilted" one which has the vertical element included. Some of that "horiontal" truning radius has been moved into the vertical plane, and thus, while you still carve a largish circle in the sky, your seperation or distance in the horizontal is signifigantly less. In the hi yo-yo example you are also, in addition to shortening the horizontal seperation, trading some speed for altitude.

There is another element to consider as well as the above. In a plane like the Fw190, or F4U, blessed with very fast rate of roll compared to some other planes, but not as lucky in the turninh department...you can also use the almost pure vertical to effect a gross horizontal change of vector. If you pull the nose up near vertical, then roll say only 45 degrees, pull over, roll out, and dive away, you can effect a near 180 degree reversal in nothing like the time it would take to do this in a flat turn. The E you burn in the vertical part (briefly) is regained on the roll out and with a slight dive into your new vector. A flat turn will have burned way more of your E away, is far more predictable to follow or track (for your opponent).

In the Fw190, I like to convert a steep climbing turn, which might appear to be a high yo-yo to my opponent, into the "Luftwaffe Stomp" or sliceback, by throwing out opposite rudder approaching the "peak" or apex of the turn, then, as I am sort of vertical at this apex, throw the rudder back hard into the turn (low wing) and slide the nose from where it is (pointing very high) across the horizon until it is almost pointing straight down...and then dive back down having gone 180 degrees in a (horizontally) extremely small area of the sky.

This is how I turn that Fw190 around and out turn them Ki-84 pilots that can't believe I'm really flying an Fw190 :)

Hope this helps somewhat, it's early in the AM, so I can't be certain I have used the shortest explanation possible !

Doc.

Posted by: Fletchman

Message: Read the articles about Energy Combat and also the Merge article.

that should help.

Fletchman's ACM page

Fletchman

Posted by: hoof

Message: Going vertical is crucial to E fighting. Energy fighting is the art of building up an energy advantage and then using that energy advantage to score a kill. What is energy? It comes in two parts: Altitude and speed. What is is useful for? Well, planes burn E in turns, the higher the G the more E you lose. Up to corner velocity, turn performance improves (turn rate goes up, turn radius goes down a bit depending on the turn), thus you can often "convert" to someone's six if they're going slow, and you are above them with enough spare energy to outturn them and get a shot.

Where "going vertical" plays a role is in this whole energy thing. If gravity didn't play a role, then altitude wouldn't make a bit of difference with regards to combat, and all combat would be one of two different styles for planes that are in motion: TnB, and hit and run. TnB (Turn and Burn) in WB is still done, and Hit and Run is often known as Boom and Zoom as it is one of the most effective versions of the Hit and Run tactic. But when you start factoring in altitude, and understanding E, you start to see how being *higher* than the other guy gives you all kinds of options, while limiting the options for the other guy.

Basically "going vertical" could be meant as "switching to Energy fighting". Basically most times this involves sticking the nose up and climbing in a Zoom. Then you do some manoever vs the other guy putting you in an advantage. If you have more E than the other guy, you will almost always gain a positional advantage this way (depending on E states, plane types, what gunnery attributes the guy below has, etc). For example, if you chase someone, and they do a hard break, then when you "go vertical" and zoom, you'll be converting your overshoot to an altitude advantage (since he did a hard turn, he has much less E than you do). Now he is slow below you, and you are above him, able to come down wherever you want. This is a very good position to be in BTW :)

Another version of "going vertical" is switching a turnfight from horizontal circles to vertical. This must be done with care, because the other guy can "cut the corner" and get a quick snapshot on you. With some planes, this is usually lethal (P38L's are particularly nasty doing this) But depending on energy states, such as when you have *gobs* of surplus E over the guy, switching to a vertical fight is to your advantage, because having a huge E surplus over someone in a horizontal fight is often not desirable (depending on the plane) due to the probability of simply overshooting him and having him reverse onto your six. And by going vertical, the other guy might be restricted to horizontal circles due to energy deficiency (or better yet, he *tries* to follow you and stalls at range 8 below you or more), and then you can simply drop down on him and blow him away.

Hope this helps!

hoof

Posted by: wells (bigv)

Message:

In terms of energy units, 2000 ft is approximately equal to 120 mph. Therefore, if u have to dive more than 2000' to gain 120 mph, u are wasting Energy! If you are diving faster than the max level speed of your plane, you will waste Energy in that u won't be able to zoom back up to altitude that u started from. Try to stay within the edges of the flight-envelope for your plane. Faster planes therefore have the better E capability. If you want to change direction...try and do it in the vertical as much as possible to avoid E loss. This is done by simply rolling when pointing either straight down or straight up. If it's done correctly, and your pursuer tries to 'cut the corner', he will lose some E. Rolls of about 90-120 degrees are best for causing E loss by your opponent trying to cut the corner.

wells

Posted by: hoof

Message: : In terms of energy units, 2000 ft is approximately equal to 120 mph. Therefore, if u have to dive more than 2000' to gain 120 mph, u are wasting Energy! If you are [snip]...

Not entirely true. Energy is proportional to the square of your speed, thus you have four times the energy at 400mph as at 200mph. Thus, assuming no air resistance (and engines off) and a complete convergance, a 400mph zoom should put you four times as high as a 200mph zoom. Also, your initial speed matters when dropping altitude. If you start at 100mph, dropping 2000ft might yield you 100mph. But if you start at 200mph, that same 2000ft might only yield 60mph. In both cases, though, you still get all the E, and can zoom back up to the original altitude (assuming no air resistance and engine off)

You are correct about losing E if you dive past maximum sustained speed, but this is usually dependant on the density of your plane. A heavy plane that is low-drag (like a P51) is going to slow down slower above maximum sustained speed, thus will "retain" E better. This is why light planes like the 109 and Ki84 appear to retain E "worse". It's ironic, really, the best accelerating planes tend to lose the most E when going faster than maximum sustained speed. This is also another reason the Ki84 is so nasty, it has such a high sustained speed it can have it's cake (accelerate fast) and eat it too (retain high speeds after a dive well).

There are two types of energy fighters, those that rely on retaining E, and those that rely on shovelling E into the plane. The retainers are usually low-drag high-horsepower heavy planes (like the P47, P51, F4U). The shovellers almost always have awesome power-weight ratios, and excell at acceleration and climb (109, Ki84, Spit). E tactics with both types is remarkably different, the retainers relying on suckering other planes into blowing more E than they, while the shovellers focus on suckering planes to follow them high (thus draining speed down), and relying on superior acceleration/climb/zoom to gain an E advantage from this point.

Very few planes excel at both. The P38L does this well (although it's more of a retainer rather than a shoveller), as does the Ki84 (which is more of a shoveller than a retainer).

hoof

Posted by: wells

Message: You are correct in saying that 400 mph will zoom u 4 times as far as 200 mph. Try this, From 200 mph, zoom up. Record altitude gain. Then from 200 mph at the same alt as u started before, dive to 400 mph in a zero G dive and then zoom up. Sure, your altitude gain will be 4 times that of the 200 mph zoom, but you will have dove much more than 3500 ft to get to 400 mph (unless your plane is capable of 400 mph level in the first place) and you will NOT reach the same altitude. E retention is only useful in horizontal flight when a plane that decelerates quicker will give you an advantage for zooming. (ex...P-38 vs F4u) The P-38 carries momentum better in the horizontal and can gain on an F4u that has leveled off. Also, a higher T/W ratio will improve zoom somewhat, where a P-38 enjoys a small advantage again.

Otherwise, acceleration due to gravity is the same for all aircraft in the vertical.

wells