Posted by: hoof

Message: I've seen both sides of the coin now. I've flown the Bf110 and found it surprisingly survivable and effective. This is reflected by the plane multipliers (the Bf110G2 has a multiplier of 1.0, the P38L a 2.22, the Hurricane 1.3 or so, the SpitIX in the 1-2 range). The combination of very heavy nose firepower, with lots of ammo, and Otto in the back make for a tough nut to crack, especially with other enemy in the area.

Front quarter attacks are usually lethal, for obvious reasons(never EVER HO a 110G2 :) And the 110 has enough manoeverability to get his nose pointed at you in most situations. So you can either stay above (forcing him to stall), then go for the high-speed pass, or you can get in close and TnB him. Option #2 is very dangerous due to Otto.

Flying the 110 I've escaped from innumerous occasions simply by turning my 6 to the attacker, jinking, and keeping Otto pointed at the enemy. The MG 15 7.9mm machine gun on the 110C4 has already taken out an F4U and a Spit, with the Spit's wing falling off.

On the offensive vs a 110, my Ki takes many many pings bringing down a 110. It usually takes two or three high-speed passes, but with the new scatter pattern for Otto the old buff busting tricks don't work so well. Fortunately I haven't lost a plane attacking a 110 from the 6 position, but it is real unnerving to take 20-40 pings to down a single 110.

Maybe the best tactic is Damn the Ottos, Full Spead Ahead!

Maybe the 110 gets to be FW replacement for those who like survivability and heavy firepower.

Anyone have thought's, ideas on how to bust a 110 with minimal damage to yourself?

Posted by: DocDoom

Message: : Anyone have thought's, ideas on how to bust a 110 with minimal damage to yourself?

Well...usually they are going to turn into you, to try and bring those guns to bare in a headon pass. As I normally fly the Fw190A-8 this doesn't bother me too much, I will hold steady (at high speed) and let loose a 1 second burst and watch for the hits from my 4 x 20mm...then roll under their nose and pull away in an arc off their beam, denying Otto much of a shot (too far to the side) and offering only the briefest of deflection which Otto don't do too well if you keep the angle moving. Now, the Bf110 will turn ok slow... fast it handles like a semi-trailer. So far, only one Bf110 has made a better fist of the headon pass, but to be honest I held the shot a second or so too long, and it was a G2/R3 varient and I lost a wing to a single 30mm hit. Purely bad luck and I was pushing a little hard for the hits on 1st pass.

If they are not mortally wounded, and often one engine is on the fritz after an effective 1st pass fire and roll under to the side....the 110 doesn't fly at all well on one engine... I can roll out and up at my 300+ mph airspeed, the 110 has no great power of manoeuvre if they bleed speed in the hard turns to get their nose around. Then, it's a matter of just getting behind the wing line and to the side, for as Otto is less capable out wide, and the target is pretty huge, it is a simple manner to put a solid stream of shells into it from a wide angle off to the 4 0'clock - 8 o'clock position.

So far...in taking on 110s in the arena...it is something like 2 (that G2/R3 headon, and a C4 that tagged me in a furball) to them and 16 or so to me :) Really...I see a "110" icon above an incoming (or running away :) plane...I start to lick my lips. Lot's of them (LOT'S) and pretty easy kills as far as I am concerned. Hurricane II's are a much harder plane to beat, but I don't fear them much either, since they are slow as molasses :)

Doc.

Posted by: hoof

Message: : I have noticed that you can take many hits from the 110s rear gun also and survive.Even in a p51!It is unnerving to take so many hits but they seem to have little effect. For now that is the way to attack it that I see. I know the 110 was fast but they seem to be modeled a little too fast in w/b!Any thoughts on this?

: frdo

Actually, the 110G2 is about as fast as a SpitV and accelerates worse. The 110C4 is slower by about 15mph. This speed is one of the things that really hurt in in the BoB, it was slower than the Spit, and in every other performance arena it was worse (turn, climb, dive, acceleration), so it had to rely on it's tailgunner a lot, and as most people know, a human gunner ain't as good as Otto :)

Oh, and the 110 suffers from the Messershmitt dive problems (it handles as bad or worse than a 109 in a dive).

hoof

Posted by: hoof

Message: : The 110 is easy to pop in one of two ways: In a t&b fighter, come in under its tail. This can be done by flying lag pursuit and occasionally popping up to score hits. The 110's gunner, like the SBD's, can't fire underneath it. However, ike an SBD, the 110 can twist about to orient the gunner towards the threat. In doing so, it does present an easy target, though.

Not terribly effective IMO. In a 110, if the nme turns better than me and gets into the rear hemisphere, I stop turning and focus on giving Otto a shot. That means easy turns with low G's, with rolls and reversals to a) keep me from being shot, and b) allow otto a clear field of fire. A TnB plane is usually not a very good accelerator and most of them have convergance problems, so unless you were right on top of him already (doubtful if you were flying under his tail in lag pursuit), you will have a goot 10-15 seconds before you can close to deal out a death blow. That's more than enough time for Otto to ventilate you :)

: In an e fighter, the old top-down attack suffices to keep the 110 from pointing its nose at you, and minimizes exposure to the tail gunner. Several passes may be needed, however, depending on what armament you carry and how well you shoot. It's quite possible to take a 110out in one pass with a 51.

Yup, IMO this is the best tactic. E fight the 110 (it don't E fight well), but watch that long reach of Otto and the Spray 'n' Pray capabilities of the nose guns. Also this doesn't work too wekk if he has friends in the area.

: Anything that helps knock down Jerry is a good thing. :)

hoof

Posted by: DocDoom

Message: : Ah, it REALLY is meat on the table for any of the late-war more durable planes (any of the U.S plus the FWs). Just as long as you have a tad more E just keep making hi-side passes from above, the otto won't get ya much at all.

: Here's a neat trick - it's not really hard to avoid the HO AND you can turn it to your advantage.

Now most 110 types are SO obsessed with getting the HO shot you can now look like you'reALMOST gonna accept the HO and they will go nuts with high-G turns and flaps and whatnot flopping around to GET a snapshot on the pass that they bleed what little E they had in the first place. Just look like you're gonna HO at about d20-d15. Then pull up slightly so you make sure you avoid the shot - barely. then reverse and slaughter the 110.

: Only 1 110 got me last night and that was late, I was tired and tried to go vertical above one without enough E left. Can't remember how many I got but it was quite a few (with a 51). FW drivers should do even better massacreing them. People's fascination with the 110G and the Hurri IIC will fade once how damn slow they are becomes apparent.

Yeppers. After tonight, I can score me (Fw190) vs them (Bf110) at around 35:1 ... wish I could do this well against everthing else :)

Doc.

Posted by: hoof

Message: : None of this is to say that the 110 is some sort of indestructible aircraft or anything, just that I've so far won more battles than I've lost. All the raving about "meat on the table" hasn't been realized and people are starting to murmer "overmodelling" just because the 110's don't fall from the sky on sight. What would you have them do with it? It's roll rate is terrible, it isn't terribly fast, etc., etc.What's the problem?

: Sorry to rant,

: nepo CO I/ZG1 "Wespen"

As usual, the situations in the General Arena don't reflect the "real" situations the planes found themselves in. In warbirds, we have mostly lone planes, with loose formations of mixed birds. In this environment, the Bf110 is turning out to be quite effective. In "real life", the Bf110 rarely went against more than one other type of plane at a time (the other type was almost always a bomber), and these other planes were organized, usually large numbers, and almost always had the advantage (in the BoB this was thanks to excellent ground control by the British).

Plus it's main shortcomings in a BoB situation is it's slow speed and inability to run from the SpitI (or fight it effectively). Naturally this isn't a problem with the GA since a Bf110 pilot rarely deals with more than one SpitI attacking at once, and almost never sees two or more working together to bring down a Bf110.

When you have 5-10 minutes to work on a Bf110 formation, and you have altitude (spitI climbs faster), speed (allowing spits to manoever, and occupy the 110s while hurris claw their way to an attacking position), manoeverability (forcing the 110s to go HO which the britsh wouldn't do for obvious reasons, which leaves 110s with 1 MG 15 to fend off attacks with), and every card. Unlike the Bf109, the Bf110 couldn't just dive away and run.

Another thing that is cause for it's bad rep in the BoB was it's expectations. The 109 was seen as a "regular" fighter, therefore losses were expected, and getting beat by Spits/Hurris was acceptable to some degree. The 110 was the Pride of the Luftwaffe, the choice plane for an up and rising pilot, and the elite of the Luftwaffe. These planes were *supposed* to kick ass. Instead they did no better than the 109s, and in many situations, did worse. The higher the expectations, the harder they fall. And if the 110s are no better than the 109s, then why should the Luftwaffe spend the extra money making them?

In truth, the Bf110 is not that bad a plane. Fighters with tail gunners almost disappeared after WWI, and having a tail gunner on a *fighter* adds a whole different ballgame. The 110's successes should level out and even go down as people figure out how to defeat them.

hoof

Posted by: hoof

Message: : : Maybe the 110 gets to be FW replacement for those who like survivability and heavyfirepower. Thanks, but no thanks: I'll stick with my 190A8. It's a smaller target, it rolls well, it's way faster, and I can actually get my guns on target from time to time. Having a Big Stick is no good if it's so unwieldy that you can't connect. The 190A8 *does* handle like a drunken pig at BUFF altitudes, but my P-47 is always there in the hangar when I get a hankering to set off some BIG explosions. : ;-)

: b1n0/bino--

Hehe, but some people like having TWICE the firepower of a FW190A8 :) Each of those 2 30mm cannon has the firepower of an A8's entire 20mm broadside, plus you've got 2 of those same 20mm to boot :)

Oh, did I mention 30 seconds of fire for those 20mm, and 12 seconds of fire for the 30's? Thats the same firing time for those 30s that a P38L has for it's 20s (ok, 1/2 second less :)

The 110g2 reminds me a lot of another plane... the A10 ... :) Of course, the A10 doesn't have a tail-gunner...

hoof