wulfer posted 02-12-99 08:29 AM ET (US)        

-xorn-, I salute you! Last night, while the golds were invading purple controlled redland, I found a gold JU52 flying its normal low, slow style from f9.

I determined his direction, vectored onto his tail and dove down at 700kph in my FW. I quickly closed the distance, but when I got to d6, and opened fire, the DrunkWagon pulled up like a big ole brick wall. I slung my stick over and back to avoid a collision, and tried to avoid catching a wingtip on the waves.

I zoomed back up to a few thousand feet and looked over the situation. That JU52 was paying attention, and had scared the bajeesus out of me! Pretty funny actually.

I re-acquired the target, and dove down again. He had gone feet dry, flying just 10 feet off the land. When I caught up with him again, and started to fire, he pulled up again. His gunners actually pinged me! I've never been hit by a Ju52 before! I pulled up into an immelman and WEPed away with a smoking engine.

My shots had knocked several pieces off, and the JU52 crashed, and I got the kill of -xorn-. I couldn't take the time to salute him right then, as I had to get to a friendly base while I still had oil left in my engine, plus, a gold 190 had spotted me and was coming for revenge.

I made it back to f23, only to find it closed, heavily capped by a dozen reds. And I still had that gold 190 d20 off my tail.

I actually managed to land at f23, amid all the reds (who I suppose were pretty shocked to see my lone purp 190 come in like that), and the 190 behind me pinged me some before I could stop and exit. He probably died at the hands of the red CAPers, but I don't know.

I tried to congratulate xorn on his evasives, and to find who that gold 190 was, but I got no answers to my queries.

I was shot up by a JU52! How will I look at myself in the mirror again? How can I ever call myself a Butcherbird pilot? Oh, how shamed!

wulfer

jamesg posted 02-12-99 09:40 AM ET (US)            

You obviously bounced a Ju52 whose passengers were armed with FG42s instead of the usual motley collection of 98ks and MP40s.

Beware...

popeye posted 02-12-99 09:46 AM ET (US)            

Heh. The "Ju-52 pullup" seems to be a standard maneuver these days. I guess it's supposed to make the attacker collide and die. Can't see much real defense in providing the attacker with a top aspect shot.

I once killed an F4u from the tail gun of a Ju-52. Switched on auto pilot, jumped to the tail gun, and shot it out with him. Couldn't believe I survived. Guess he was a newbie.

popeye

Bugjam posted 02-12-99 09:52 AM ET (US)            

I've been rewarded a kill once in JU52, that was otto. On the same sortie I got a piece too... and a field capture I never made back to ground in one piece though. I've been pinged many times by JU52 but killed, never. It's common for me to get damage from Ju52's during the first days of RPS. Those .303's need a looong solid burst before that sucker comes down.

Bugjam

VMF-58 Wildcards Rogue Squadron

whwk Red Raiders posted 02-12-99 10:47 AM ET (US)            

Heh. The "Ju-52 pullup" seems to be a standard maneuver these days. I guess it's supposed to make the attacker collide and die. Can't see much real defense in providing the attacker with a top aspect shot.

This manuver is done for two reasons. The first is a defensive move to try and get the aggresive stalker to try and overshoot. It is not to try and promote a ram. Believe me a Ju52 driver doesn't want to die after flying for 20 minutes to an airfield. In reality there are no good moves I know of to survive in a JU.

The second reason you pop up over the control tower in a Ju52 is to get your troops to fall straight down, hopefully on top of the CT. It is a better tactic than stringing the troops out over a base. The troops run in a straight line and one fighter with the right angle can take them all out in one pass.

Out of all the Ju52 missions I have flown (not many maybe 50) I think I have killed maybe 5 attackers. Usually by means of a manuver kill.

-whwk-

funked posted 02-12-99 11:15 AM ET (US)            

Yeah the pullup is not for a ram, it's to make the fighter miss. If you are ramming Ju 52's you need to watch your closure and stop firing earlier. It's a slow plane so you can't keep firing until d1.

popeye posted 02-12-99 11:15 AM ET (US)            

In reality there are no good moves I know of to survive in a JU.

Exactly why I think the "pull up" is designed to cause a collision. The Ju driver is taking a chance that he will survive. Otherwise, he knows he is dead meat.

If the attacker is so fast that he will overshoot, a nose low break will be a better move for the Ju driver, since it might get the attacker to redout and auger, and the Ju can recover back on course quicker than he can from the pull up. The pull up gives the attacker a beautiful shot -- if he doesn't collide.

popeye

whwk Red Raiders posted 02-12-99 11:50 AM ET (US)            

hehe, a nose low break at 10 feet agl is kinda tuff Popeye, but will keep that in mind

I know what you are talking about though and pulling straight up with a fighter on your six with no speed is crazy)

-whwk-

wulfer posted 02-12-99 12:07 PM ET (US)            

Even if the pull-up move is to force a collision, I could consider it a respectable maneuver. If a 190 is zooming in on your Ju52's six, and you just continue flying low and slow, you are going to die. No doubt about it. But, if you pull up, you force the attacker to choose between continueing with the attack and probably colliding and dieing, or pulling out of the attack, and letting the DrunkWagon live for another few moments. Its the game of "chicken."

If xorn had had an escort close to him, I would not have been able to quickly set-up another dive on him, and he would have lived.

There's nothing wrong with the pull-up move, anymore so than pointing your forward guns on an attacker and making the attacker choose between a foolish head-on or breaking off the attack.

If your gonna die anyway, might as well take the attacker with you, right?

wulfer

madmax posted 02-12-99 12:25 PM ET (US)            

Nope Popeye, ur wrong. wrong. wrong. <g>

Buss drivers go for the pull up simply because they have no other way to go. Like whwk said, nosing down at 10ft is inherently dangerous, and the Ju52 simply is not know for its roll rate.

May I ask you this? How many times have you collided with a Ju that has performed this manuver?

Anyhow, under current settings, once a Ju is "made", he is pretty much ded meat anyhow. I fly them often during squad meets, the most I have been able to hold off a single attacker was about 4 passes usually dying within sight of the field. On the other hand, when incorporating a stealthy approach route, using natural geographic features for cover I have been 80% (ok, approximation here) successful in troop drops and captures.

When I am feeling especially nasty, I just cruise the normal straight on approach routes to a field in jeopardy at 50' in my FW just looking for the slow motion blob on the horizon, rarely disappointed.

Lt Col "madmax", X.O.

"Tempest Squadron" 463 Bombardment Group

ssipila posted 02-12-99 12:26 PM ET (US)            

Hehe...I once got a kill in a Ju52 - I was lumbering along towards a red airfield us golds were taking over, and saw a red get interested from a long way away.

There wasn't much I could do, so I switched to autopilot and went to the external view to get a good look at the butchering about to happen.

The red turned out to be a Zeke. He zoomed

in from my high 6 and went straight for the kill, without trying to fool Otto with anything. Good old Otto opened fire on him with that puny MG without having any deflection to take into account, and the red didn't have time to even sneeze - KABOOM

I discoed just one minute or so later, but

I was still chuckling...

Luny

Stiglr posted 02-12-99 02:40 PM ET (US)            

1) I have had my 109's engine pinged into bad health *several* times by JU52s. It seems to be one of those "some days it happens, other days it don't" things. Other days, I can rack up 5 of 'em in a row and never pick up so much as a scratch on the paint. Go figure.

2) I LOVE to see the JU52 pull-up. I plan for it as I drift in, correcting my speed. It's almost always to the left, and I have a just-as-standard rudder stomp and turn that allows me to stitch the doomed JU52 all down the fuselage, usually getting a stab along the way. When I see debris fly clear, I chandelle, pulling off in the opposite direction and he lurches down into terra firma. If I'm flying a 109K, this usually happens even faster, as just a few 30mm shells get the job done.

3) Just to balance things, I can remember with acute embarassment at one sortie in the Main where I saw a lone, unescorted Kate down about 1KM. Outraged at the *audacity* of this dweeb (it was 1943 in the RPS! what's this guy thinking!!!), I swooped in, thinking all it would take was shouting "boo" to collect my kill. But this Kate was game!!! He juked, he jived, he dodged, he reversed.....and finally, he KICKED my BUTT! A pilot kill from the rear gunner after smoking my engine and causing me to nearly empty my guns! The fight lasted at least 6 gun passes!!!! That's right, I fell to a Kate! A KATE!!!!! I got "my butt whupped and my airplane took"!!!! I don't remember the guy's name (I was expecting it to be toad), but I will never forget that humbling.

Jagdgeschwader Funf Eismeer "The Hellspawn from Herdla"...one of a select few historically-based Luftwaffe squadrons, flying principly in the HA, SL, WW and other organized events.

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 02-12-99 03:48 PM ET (US)            

don't feel so bad guys, drex (with the help of 4 other frogs) shot my p40 down with his ju87! And yes, i have shot down numerous zekes while flying the ju52, dunno how but i did .

Tschüß

ik