Bombom posted 12-14-98 03:47 PM ET (US)        

So you know how to perform a lag displacement roll, a high yo-yo, the rope-a-dope, a flat scissor and Mr Hartmann's Escape, but how do you describe the rolling scissors in so many words?

Start out with a couple of flat breaks as usual, then continue a break with a further quarter roll, dive, half-roll, zoom, invert, float, pull, guns guns guns?

Your input is appreciated

-bmbm-, CO Royal Swedish Air Force

Fighting for Bullens Pilsnerkorv and lukewarm beer worldwide

Kergan posted 12-14-98 03:57 PM ET (US)            

Well, you start like this

Holds left hand up palm down

when he's like this

Holds other hand up slightly behind the left one

Then you sort of go like this, while he goes like this

much waving and swooping of hands

And then you sort of go like....

kergan's left shoulder makes a sickening popping sound

OW! ummm, excuse me, but I think i need to have this looked at....

walks away holding arm, while muttering that "at least it's not my stick hand"

Kergan, VMF-214

Bino posted 12-14-98 04:03 PM ET (US)            

Two planes in a Rolling Scissors look a lot like the double helix of DNA, with each plane describing a sort of corkscrew path around the other through the sky. And like a Flat Scissors, the object is to minimize your straight-line distance covered, so you end up behind the other guy.

IMHO, it's kinda complicated in practice. The (very) few times that I have used it and things worked out well, I made up all my angles by rolling hard while pointed either straight up or straight down, pulled moderate G at the bottoms, and max G at the tops.

Your mileage my vary.

PS:

Kergan, you are one funny guy!

bino--

juve posted 12-14-98 04:03 PM ET (US)            

ROFL!

Can I invite you to give some lectures on ACMs to some of our meeting, Kergan ?

That was one of the best explained manouvers I've ever seen!

Ciao,

Juve (still laughing, and my co-workers thought I'm gone insane)

P.S. Hope your shoulder recovers quickly!

Juve

Bombom posted 12-14-98 04:04 PM ET (US)            

Well, since my sorry description only covered the very first (potential) vertical moves (if at all correct hehe), I gather your other arm will pop its socket too as we move to the end-game .)

-bmbm-, CO Royal Swedish Air Force

Fighting for Bullens Pilsnerkorv and lukewarm beer worldwide

dance posted 12-15-98 04:04 AM ET (US)            

Kergan,

I'm still laughing

You've made my day, thanks!

// dance-

Daff RSAF posted 12-15-98 05:24 AM ET (US)            

Hmm next to the lag displacement roll, it's probably the hardest maneuver to describe..

I use it occasionally, mainly in early war planes and I would probably call it a combination of the lag displacement roll and scissors . There's no fixed way to enter the rolling scissors and it doesnt really consists of "fixed" moves and certainly have to be adopted to plane/flying style.

The diagram in Shaw's shows a pretty good scenario, but it doesnt have to be that way.

(Hmmm why am I trying to describe this, when I've only had one cup of coffee.)

The main turning point in a rolling scissors fight often happens on the "top". One guy manages to get that bit higher & slower and roll down that bit quicker or doesnt get quite high & slow enough. It's a combination of a scissors & E fight.

Daff (goes of to get some more coffee)

worr posted 12-15-98 09:35 AM ET (US)            

Take a flat scissors and point both their noses up. That's it.

BTW...I like your word picture bino.

Worr, out

mikeko posted 12-15-98 09:58 AM ET (US)            

From your explanations it looks pretty much like two planes doing barrel rolls along the same path and trying to outslow each other.

Am I correct?

miko--

Bino posted 12-15-98 10:51 AM ET (US)            

Not quite. A Barrel Roll won't change your heading, but a Rolling Scissors will. Each plane in a RS would only be turning in the vertical (i.e. rolling while pointed either up or down), but they would be altering course.

For example: If I'm flying along and go defensive against an attacker with both lots of overtake and lots of angle-off,

1.) I pull the nose nearly straight up.

2.) I roll hard to place my lift vector on or slightly ahead of my attacker as he overshoots.

When he pulls into me,

1.) Now I'm inverted, and pull max G down into him.

2.) When my nose points DOWN, I roll hard into him again.

3.) I pull moderate G at the bottom (preserving speed), and keep pulling until I point back UP.

4.) I roll hard to place my lift vector on or slightly ahead of my attacker...

Lather, rinse, repeat.

PS:

Worr, thx!

bino--

Dekker posted 12-17-98 12:33 AM ET (US)            

Worr and Para taught me a few things and Ohoh asked how to do it,

I didn't have a chance to answer.. I'll try and do it quickly now that I am thinking of it again. I went 3 Thursday's to the Training Arena. You guys should go too. Para and Worr are excellent.

Vertical Scissors:

The Point: To decrease separation quickly, to force the bandit to overshoot and to get a quick guns solution when he was on your six with medium closure.

1. Do a gentle turn in either direction as the bandit is coming up your tail.

Keeping visual out your rear view until at d14.

2. At d14, firmly pull hard in a horizontal turn (only a bit of stall horn) and looking out your top view, you should center the bandit in your top view.

(In technical terms, put your lift vector on the bandit..)

3. Soon as he is centered QUICKLY roll level and pull up. This often turns into an Immelman. Try and get vis out the top of the canopy of his overshoot.

Here the bandit could pull up as well and then you both end up in rolling scissors with each other. But if he continues and overshoots.

4. Roll the OPPOSITE to your horizontal turn to get in position for a guns solution usually the bogie was d5-d7 in my gunsight right after the pass for me.

Hammerhead/Flip turn:

The Point: Great way to surprise someone coming up your tail with less Energy at maybe d5-d7, if you can stay above him in the vertical, then you both stall and flip over, but you stay in control, you will be on his six. Some call this a pure "Rope-a-Dope", there are other variations like Ara's Climbing Spiral until bogie stalls out then pounce as well.

1. Have speed. Dive down if needed,

2. Pull straight into the vertical, if you have the HUD on, pull until you see the small "+" crosshairs in the center of your front view.

I don't have the HUD on, and I use the horizon and my wingtips. For me it works better and Worr said I got it perfectly. I pull up and looking out my left and right sides and hold it in perfect vertical perdendicular to the horizon, and also use rudders to keep the wingtip level with horizon.

3. Hang on the prop and wait. Wait til you "feel" the plane get mushy.

I can tell this when the plane rolls by itself because of the torque. It just begins to roll left in the Spitter, then I immediately reduce power to idle to avoid the torque moving me anymore. You still stay vertical a bit, then if you apply no rudder, it will stall and flip over, usually perfectly towards the ground (you will see the crosshairs "+" when vertical again) and you can control the plane once speed increases. To do the hammerhead, you kick in the rudder at the last moment, so you will control which direction you will flip over.

P.S. The AirShow hammerheads are powered and make perfect arcs around a stationary lower wingtip at the top of the zoom, but the idea of flipping at the top is the same and its a useful ACM to know and doesn't have to look good. =)

Energy Conserving 180: 1/2 Cuban 8.

This is a great way to turn around fast, and not lose any E or speed.

1. Go into a 45 degree climb or more.

2. At the top of the climb when you slow down to above stall speed, roll inverted.

3. Pull towards the ground.

4. Pull out level, and you will be at the same height, same speed, but heading 180 degrees the other way.

Snap Rolls from Para:

The Point:

Shake off a guns solution. Recovering is good to learn so you won't fall into accelerated spins. Quick way to flip the plane upside down and right side up.

Be at cruising speed.

1. Using the rudders rock the plane side to side getting the widest yaw you can.

2. When the yaw is at the widest swing. (Full rudder) Pull up hard. The plane will flip on its back and even come back level.

3. Release all controls immediately. If you hold it in the wing stalled state you could go into an accelerated stall and a spin from which it is hard to recover.

4. Repeat until it becomes something you can control.

S/L Dekker

*401 Squadron RCAF Rams*

www.401rams.ml.org

"Mors Celerima Hostibus!!!"

Jester posted 12-23-98 11:44 PM ET (US)            

if u get a chance to meet up with =jagr= in the TA do it. he has a great rolling scissors. however, i dont think he can describe it either

Jester ~Hell's Aces~