ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 06-10-99 05:36 PM            

I thought I'd mention something about acm today, never done it before on agw but why the heck not?!

When you have a bad guy on your high 6 and he begins to dive on you, the gut reaction is to make a hard diving break turn to evade his gunsight (or just warp roll if you're in a 190 ). This works, sometimes, but it wastes a lot of energy and leaves your attacker in a superior position. There are other options which retain you more energy and leave you with a superior position when you need to evade an attacker. One of the best moves is a Rolling Scissors. Begin when the bad guy is about 700 yards behind you and closing, flip inverted like you are going to do a Split S, but only pull back a few degrees and roll back into normal flight with a sharp pull up, followed again by rolling inverted. It helps to use a lot of rudder with your roll to keep from staying on the same heading throughout the maneuver. Repeat this until your attacker overshoots, and you might even be able to pull up on his 6. This does require practice, but it's far superior to a break turn for defense.

For an example, when i fly the 109 attacking from above is absolutely necessary. So I begin my dive and watch my target pull into a sharp diving break turn, or even Split S. He has evaded my attack, but blown all of his energy and lost any hope of attaining an equal energy state to my own (unless it's a dragless Spit ). The targets who really scare me, and who have shot me down from an inferior position a few times, are the ones who do some variation of a scissors mentioned above. A barrel roll variation also works really well, and is so hard to hit. Reversing a disadvantage is not about gaining superior position, it's about gaining superior energy.

The Rolling Scissors is good for defense against a higher or lower wingloaded attacker (worse or better turning), because It takes advantage of your attackers large turning radius due to his superior speed. Please mention any other tricks for forcing an overshoot you might have, or correcting any mistake i have made. Thanx!

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

members.cruzio.com/~jeffs

funked posted 06-10-99 05:46 PM            

Shhhhhhhh Ik!!!

Yes I like it.

Ask BB-Gun about it. He nearly killed my Me 262 once in his P-51D by using this maneuver. I was about to lose my advantage but I made a nice snapshot right before I made what would have been my *final* overshoot.

DuneFT posted 06-10-99 05:49 PM            

IK, after flying in the HA for awhile (which on average has better LW pilots than the main) I have found that my ability to dodge high 6 attacks has improved. However, it takes a little to convince yourself to do the rolls while someone is closin on your 6. While you may end up with a better e-state, it feels better going into a split-s because you know you probably wont be hit.

However, I have gotten a few LW's when you start with a split-s or two. A lot of pilots wont carry their zoom all the way through before they come back at you. So, as you loose energy they do too. Then, do your barrel roll and because they have given up their e, you find yourself on equal energy terms.

Mind you I am not a poster child for any type of ACM tactics. While I could i.d. them if I saw them, I fly mostly by instinct. Which, of course, gets me killed when I'm in a plane I don't fly much. Like a P-47.

P.S. That's why I stick to Mustangs

DuneFT "Vayan Con Dios Mis Hermanos!"

Spitfire posted 06-10-99 05:51 PM            

All overshoots involve some sort of scissors motion

I love rolling around people, its so much fun.

Here, is how I set up the rolling scissors. Its probably just the standard way. I turn into my opponent, and stop at 90 degrees aspect, pulling just enough to keep him at 90 degrees aspect. I he pulls for a shot, he bleeds E faster and will eventually overshoot when I go for the roll and pull. If he goes lag, it accomplished exactly what I wanted. If he goes lag, and overshoots I pull up and roll around him. Alot of guys think they have the E right now and will pull straight up for me. This is when I reverse from my inverted position in a lead turn to get a shot off, or go lag to follow him up.

If a full out rolling scissors developes, I just get my nose higher on the top, pulling max G with flaps, then go lag down on the bottom to gain E. It involves both vertical motion and horizontal motion, so superior turning and superior acceleration are needed.

Superior roll rate helps also for changing the position of your lift vector.

The Rolling Scissors by far is one of the funnest moves in Air Combat

Spitfire

Rifle 401 Rams posted 06-10-99 05:56 PM            

One that I have found to work (not all the time but then again what move does ...) is to turn in one direction look for the bogie to be d2-3 and reverse your turn - I often get to where I have a 1-2 sec burst at the varmints.

Now if only that JATO bottle would come thru supply ...

Cheers,

Rifle

Wells posted 06-10-99 05:56 PM            

Hey ik,

It's better than talking about IMOL!

I use vertical scissors against 190's when flying a P-47. With the 47's advantage at the stall (easier to control), there's a chance the 190 could stall briefly or snap right out. Also, the vertical scissors defeats the use of a yo-yo type maneuver as that would put the attacker in the horizontal, where energy is lost, rather than conserved (unless it's a Spit)

With the 109, an immelman followed by a spiral climb would be a great energy gaining combo.

Spitfire posted 06-10-99 06:10 PM            

By the way, The Rolling Scissors is best used as an Offensive Maneuver, not a Defensive maneuver

keiun posted 06-11-99 07:22 AM            

Nice posts, experten, very clear. Great for dweebs like me.

Does anybody want to start threads on the spiral dive and spiral climb as defensive moves? Gets me confused every time I think about it...

keiun

eadg posted 06-11-99 08:09 AM            

Ik, I learned that defense by accident after months of being hounded by greta e fiters in the 1.xx arenas (when I insisted the zeke was invincible hehehe). Technically it's not really a rolling scissors, it's kind of a bastardized half cuban-8 (if you're doing what i think you are), but I agree it works greta, and is FAR superior to any horizontal (or worse, diving YUCK) defense.

As Spit mentioned, the rolling scissor is really more of a type of fight than it is a specific maneuver. The best fights I ever remember is where both planes are both doing the rolling scissor, with the climb, roll over the top, dive, climb, etc., eahc trying to lag the other, squeeze out an extra percentage point of angle or energy, and the fight can last 20 minutes before a clear advantage is gained, let alone a shot getting fired. My single greatest fights have been against drex and garn, and they all seemed to degenerate into exactly these types of rolling scissor battles (if I last more than 3 seconds post-merge heheheh), sometimes modified into an oblique plane as we near the deck, or corrupting into a flat scissor with barrel rolls at the merge points. I wish we had guncam footage, because these fights are almost impossible to describe.

Good thread!

Bombjack posted 06-11-99 09:56 AM            

For keiun, from the 249 archives

Slightly changed for palatability to a wider audience.

The Climbing Spiral

This move is an offensive reversal, ie it is used to kill someone who is behind you. A few conditions need to be satisfied before it will work, but once initiated the only defence is to disengage.

Briefly, the spiral begins as a climb to which greater and greater degrees of turn are slowly added, until the lead plane is 'hanging on his prop' ready to wingover and reverse. The spiral is used to sap the chasing plane's energy while maintaining the lead plane's energy for longer. When the chaser stalls out, the lead plane reverses and kills him.

preconditions:

This is the situation in which a spiral is doable - all must be true:

1) Enemy plane is chasing you but you are not defensive, distance is at least d10, can be slightly less dependent on your advantage in other areas

2) Enemy has no more energy than you and preferably less (note that if you have a LOT more energy, then you don't need the spiral)

3) You need a plane that climbs at least as well as that of your opponent (learn the stats, you'll find the effort is well worth it)

4) You need to be able to handle your plane in a stall the move:

1) Gently pull into a shallow climb. Gentle because hard high-alpha pulls burn E, and shallow because maintaining the seperation to the chaser is key, and a harder climb lets him 'cut the corner'.

2) Increase the climb a little and begin to turn. Direction of turn depends on your plane, you don't want to be fighting the torque when you get slow. In most single-engine fighters this means you turn to the left (Spit XIV is an exception).

3) From now on you should be looking out of your keypad '1' view at the enemy behind you almost all the time. You are watching for two things: is he closing? And is he stalling? If he initially starts to close, then you have got the sucker, because this means he's pulling lead on you. As the spiral begins to tighten he's going to be in trouble. If you judged the entry conditions right there's no way he can get a shot at you.

4) While you're looking out the back, it's easy to allow the nose to drop and stop climbing. If this happens and you don't fix it quick, it can kill you. Make sure you stay nose up.

5) Knowing how hard to turn in the spiral is the hardest bit of it. My rule of thumb is that I react to the chaser. If he drifts to the right he's leading me so I turn a little harder to keep drawing him in. If he drifts left, he may be wising up and moving to lag pursuit so I relax a bit to maintain E. All of these are very small changes. Remember your E is like chips at the poker table in this move - and you're simply going to raise the stakes until he can't play any more. Remember to use your rudder to keep the nose above the horizon when you're turning tightly. But keep your turn as coordinated as you can - excessive slip means you're burning E.

6) You played it right, well done. You watch the con suddenly wallow and lose angles, maybe even begin to nose down. He has stalled. This is where you deliver the coup-de-grace. If you've been picturing this in your head, you'll know that your plane's attitude should be: nose high, wings banked left, speed low (possible even riding the stall). To reverse you simply kick the rudder (which was the only thing holding your nose up) down into the turn, roll inverted, pull and rotate the plane back to face your sadly floundering prey You have E, angles and altitude. You cannot lose.

6) Watch out for his mates

-bmjk-

249 Squadron RAF

bonger487 posted 06-11-99 02:55 PM         

I think this is a great place for some ACM discussion!

The scissors is a great move. If you find yourself outnumbered and amoung many enemies some times a scissors will just slow you enough to let all the other attackers find and engage you. Therefore I like to use the scissors as a secondary move if trying to bug to friendlies. I like to use the Hartmann move first to try and bug from a bad situation. Then the scissors to illude any following attackers.

The Hartmann move, for those of you who dont know is done by a pulling a "gentle" flat break turn into the attacker as he is about d5-7. The attacker has to pull lead at this point to lead you for his guns solution and temporarily puts you out of sight under his nose. He is assuming you are going to complete your break turn in front of him.

You dont. Instead as he looses sight of you you roll wings level und gently push down on the stick into a shallow dive. If the attacker has taken the bait, as you look to your 6 he is usually still climbing trying to find you. You on the otherhand are in a shallow dive with a much greater speed runnin like hell to friendlies. E retention is key here since the object is to dissengage and bug out.

Its a great move and i always cant help but chuckle as i watch the attacker climbing and rolling, trying to find me....hehe!

Bonger

Kergan posted 06-11-99 03:13 PM            

IMO Spitfire, the Rolling Scissors is best used as a riposte (to borrow a fencing term).

It's a defensive manuver that puts you in an offensive position.

And yes, it is great fun to use.

-olli- posted 06-11-99 03:38 PM            

When I fly 109 and have a faster enemy at my 6, my decision depends of the plane he is flying.

I am taking Spit9 as an example here. If he is coming REAL fast, then simple scissors usually is enough to make him overshoot.

If he is not so much faster, I will try this: When he is d5-d6 I roll and "begin" Split-S! After I have seen him rolled inverted too I push the stick hard forward!

I know I will red out for a while, but I also know, that the elevator of 109 works better in "push" than the one of the Spit.

So if he wants to follow me, he either has to stay "red" not knowing what I am going to do or roll back to dive.

I don't know if this one is "from the book", but it has saved me several times ;-)

Drex posted 06-11-99 04:39 PM            

Eadg,

As I told you after that particular fight. I measure another pilots skill by the length of the ash still on my cigarette when I'm finished with the engagement. Yours went to the filter. You are the master of the rolling scissors. Unloading at the bottom of the roll at the perfect time, you use enough rudder while not losing a lot of nose angle to establish great position. Thats why if one of us dont kill each other right after the merge.I might as well cancel any plans...its gonna' max the Ash Benchmark. Your an animal.

Salute,

Drex

Kodiak posted 06-11-99 04:52 PM            

Ik,

Think thats really more of a barrel roll defense than a rolling scissors.

If people find themselves in that position by all means use the move but it should be a last resort. It means they have been taken by surprise or have allowed the con to gain a high 6 position. Not good. Also the timing has to be excellent against a veteran pilot or he shoots you out of the sky as he blows past. Worse yet. I watch guys extend to use that move repeatedly instead of looking for an offensive oportunity. Nothing but delayed suicide because eventually they will blow the timing and they are going to get hit.

I much prefer to be patient and agressive. Just like Boelka and Richtoffen always said turn into the con. Stay as fast as possible and keep driving underneath him as he tries to come around. Dont get in a hurry to put the nose up and shoot. If you can keep him in the 45 up view while following his climbing banked turn thats perfect. This leaves him with nothing but steep E blowing dives followed by low percentage snap shots (if even that). If he gets around on you he gets nothing but a very steep dive at your 6 while you perform the barrel roll defense. Have found that against most arena players it takes about 2 passes before he has blown all his E and the tables are reversed. You should be able to stalemate most long time vets until (A)help for one of you arrives, (B)they get greedy and sloppy, (C)you get sloppy, (D) the wife/girlfriend/kids/dog make you stop flying

Kodiak III./JG54

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 06-12-99 04:19 AM            

hmmm kodiak, i respectfully disagree. I am a firm believer in equalizing energy states before gaining anlge (turning into the nme). I have used my bastardized rolling scissors, half cuban, barrel roll whatever to kill attacking Spit IX's with my 109G-6, so I'm not changing a thing! In fact I do let high enemy get on my high 6 with the exact intention of forcing an overshoot. It is not delayed suicide, but is in fact the only way I can ever reverse the fight against a faster, better turning, better climbing opponent (109G-5 vs Spit9 above 3km). Maybe my discussion is a bit too Spitfire oriented, but that's the plane I fight 90% of the time in the Main Arena, the HA, or a scenario.

-Dobs- posted 06-12-99 04:49 AM            

Just going to lob this out:

Rolling scissors is usually initiated when one of the aircraft sets his lift vector and starts pulling toward the other aircraft's hi-6. In response, to preserve 3-9, the other aircraft does the same. Now we have two aircraft trying to pull toward each others hi-6 (which is now,btw, moving) and you end up in a rolling "scissors". Vertical (up scissors) usually end up going horizontal, then down hill in a hurry.

The "vertical S turn" described above by ik, is not what I would call a scissors, but a, for him, effective way to negate/deny a hi-E, positional advantaged fighter a shot opportunity.

Scott -dobs- Stevenson

CO European Theater of Operations, 333rd Red Dawgs

Kodiak posted 06-12-99 12:17 PM            

Ik,

You may be right but my experience has been exactly the opposite. The maneuvering I describe isnt intended to be a rush to gain angles. It has been the quickest way to equalize energy states against a skilled pilot.

Maybe we can hook up on ICQ and run a few H2H sorties? Lets give it a try. Tactical experiments and excercises are always fun. Always interested in finding better ways to hammer those evil spitfires.

Kodiak III./JG54

Beaz posted 06-13-99 04:31 AM            

If you want a reasonable defensive manoevre that I hardly ever see in the main arena but I seem to use all the time... try a "snap roll"... works almost every time for me... especially when you have a speed differential of about 30-50 knots with the bad guy gaining on your 6. I've had quite a few instances where I've caught the roll after 2 rotations... saw the bad guy overshoot and come infront of me and blown him out the sky. Even had some guys call me up and accuse me of cheating but when I've explained to them what I did they usually say things along the lines of... "cool... didn't know you could even do that!"

Hardly ever see this manoevre in the main arena... try it.

Regards

Daren

Hat Trick posted 06-14-99 09:38 PM            

BFM and ACM Now that would be a kewl Posting area.

Ok. Most of my "Training" involves Diffential Tactics. And the use and assumption of Wingmen. However,.....

I fly the 190 and and KI mostly. I used to be a zeke guy...and im slowly falling in love with but terrified of the 109. Ive never been impressed with its rate of fire.

And Spits...well anyone is good in a spit.

So, heres my tidbits.

1. Always fly with a dedicated wingman....IE hes not engaging offensively for any reason other to clear your 6.

2. Think like a base ball player....if the ball is hit to me. What are my options.

3. Dont go into enemy territory without some sort of ALT advantage.

4. At D69..if hes higher...extend starting immediately. dont go trying to be a hero.

5. Always study a fight below...what are they in...what am I in...whats he/she gonna do for defense...what is the best entry and ACT to use.

6. Designate for yourself or your wingman what your egress will be.

7. Always dive into a fight heading home.

8. If you get angry...or greedy...be responsible...and extend to try again.

9. Know when to say when.

10. Relax...turn the T.V. Off...tell a Chat "brb im in" eliminate all distractions...concentrate.

11. Dont ever drop below 5,000 feet. Ever...

B & Z Boys

12. Wait for the shot...

13. Have a plan...and a backup plan..dont use eratic Manuevers...study 10 basic manuevers..then master them...then study 10 more....and so on and so on...

14. Location Location Location

15. As they say in boxing...dont telegraph your punch.

16. If your working hard for it...then your in over your head.

17. Killing 5 acft in 10 sorties and landing all 10.....is better than killing 20 acft in 5 sorties and landing none.

18. Just ask SCOP DREX GARN EADG IK EAGL REDANT DEFT HTRK FOKR if you can ride as an observer...and ask them on RW...hey..what was that manuever called...

19. To have fun..is to accomplish something...just to be there...isnt any fun.

20. Buy a good book...and read it offline..and practice..

21. Dont take 1 out of every 20 flights seriously Like I do...take them all seriously...and people will praise you even when your gone... VIGL, PASO, MILI, VILA etc...etc...etc...