gkenney posted 04-12-99 03:08 PM            

I'm tryijng to move from a T&B pilot to more of an E pilot. I'm having problems, however, with reversals.

I tend to climb obliquely after a pass and as I slow with nose up, I kick the bottom rudder to come back around.

I takes awhile to do this. While I'm at the slower speed getting ready to reverse, it seems like everyone in the world is shooting at me. I get nailed a lot at the top of the turn. I try not to dip down too low on the pass, but as I come back up guys from below are getting me.

Does anyone have a favorite way to reverse. I know the names of the standar manuvers (e.g., hammerhead, chandell, etc) but am not sure that I am doing them right. What are the stick and rudder moves you use.

Any help would be great, I want to graduate out of the dweebfire.

MadCap

------------------

Common sense, while never authorized, is rarely prohibited

dadi 4th FG posted 04-12-99 03:36 PM            

Spend at least 1 hour in the TA... [training arena - front] Best advice...

Go obs, defense , and offense...will make a big difference

good luck

Hobo posted 04-12-99 03:39 PM            

To make the transition easier, why not stick with the "dweebfire" and learn to "E" fight in it? The Spit 9 is really a pretty good E fighter with no bad habits.

Start by forcing your self to BnZ with it, and before long you'll be learning new ways to reverse it. Simple Chandelles (sp) can be effective, as well as others. Check out the IMOL training pages and make an appointment with a trainer. The key to BnZ IMO, is having good judgement of your enemy's E state BEFORE you do the "Boom" part. Make certain that those nme around you have less E when you start your dive on your target. Then you can Zoom without worrying about the

other guy zooming with you and killing you at the top.

After E fighting with the Spit you can then try these tactics out in different planes and find the one you like best. Soon you'll be refining your tactics to suit your unique style. But the first step starts with the IMOL training pages and a trainer.

I'm sure some of the top guys around here can give you more (and better advice), but I like to think it's better to take lotsa small steps than one huge jump into something new and different.

Just to clarify when I refer to BnZ I'm not referring to E fighting. I just think BnZ is a good way to transition to pur E fighting.

Hobo

Dekker posted 04-12-99 03:40 PM            

You don't "Graduate" out of the dweebfire.

You stop flying the Spitfire like a dweeb,

and fly it using E-retaining tactics.

And only "optionally" use T&B.

Then you will be a man, grasshopper.

*grin*

Dekker

(Start with this idea, when extending for your chandelle reverse, never put your nose

above 20-30 degrees, until your speed bleeds

down) (you need horizontal separation first

before showing the enemy your plan form.)

Next try a half cuban 8, go to a 45 degree

climb at the top when speed is turned to

potential E, gently split-S back 180 degrees.

Dekker

avin posted 04-12-99 03:50 PM            

You can't go vertical unless you have the e-margin. A large part of e-fighting is calculating that you do have the e you need (or don't). When you don't have the e margin, all you can do is just keep trucking, and reacquire the e differential you need in safety before re-entering the fray.

Do what dadi suggests, and drop into the training arena. I've been spending time there, and it's been well worth it.

avin

Jester posted 04-13-99 11:05 AM            

you can do exactly what dekr said which in plain english = pull up near about 100mph pull over and split s back.

you are turning your kinetic energy=zooming speed BACK into potential energy=the altitude. keep your speed so as not to be a fish out of water (standing in one place flopping around).

from there you will learn different variations and approaches that will help you become a terror.

Jester ~Hell's Aces~

Bombjack posted 04-13-99 11:22 AM            

you can do exactly what dekr said which in plain english = pull up near about 100mph pull over and split s back.

I don't want to pick nits, but I prefer to make the final reversal at or near corner, which in the Spit is 160 knots. If you try for the turn at 100 you'll either turn really slowly, or you'll bleed E as you make a high-alpha turn. YMMV

jedi posted 04-13-99 11:39 AM            

The question that has yet to be asked, is "Why reverse at all?" A series of hard (or even more gradual) reversals is the fastest way to dissipate your energy advantage over your prey. This is fine if you are scoring hits on him with each pass or bleeding his energy for the final kill. But if you find yourself unable to take down your opponent on two or three passes, the last thing you want to do is be down there co-E with him. There's a REAL good chance that a guy who can successfully defend against an E-advantaged opponent, can eat your lunch if you give up that advantage.

An alternative is to use that speed advantage to climb away as above, but instead of immediately reversing for the reattack, simply roll into a gentle, LEVEL turn at the top of your climb (assuming you've climbed out of range of course) Once you're headed back towards the enemy, roll out of your turn, and you're immediately putting energy back into your "E-bank." Going from 100-mph climb to 200-mph at the same alt gives you back several options, and only costs a few seconds.

Don't press a marginal energy advantage unless you are pretty sure you're gonna get the kill by doing it.

-jedi- VF-17

Jester posted 04-13-99 01:23 PM            

bombjack you are correct...but my point was based on what the other con was doing.

you have to keep your eyes on the con...if he reverses its best to rev at corner speed. if not use the extra alt..drop flaps and rev at 100.

flip the flaps back up and dive towards him/her.

Jester ~Hell's Aces~

Gryf posted 04-13-99 02:45 PM            

I'll give Y'all a warning. I started typing and the finger just kept going. Please forgive if I bore ya to death.

I think the best "reversal" is to climb back to alt, look at the enemy below and decide upon another attack. Just zooming back and forth will get you killed pretty quick.

I have some views on the way fights should be handled, but the #1 issue for anyone learning a new fight or AC is to get an advantage in it. The easiest advantage to get is altitude. It just takes patience to get some. I promised a squaddie of mine I was going to actually write out my Energy lecture, so here are some off the cuff notes

Here are a couple of notes from my Energy fighting lessons:

Energy=Altitude + Speed

Your total energy state is determined by a combination of the two. If you have a significant advantage in one area or the other you are starting off in a good position. Remember that if you lose alt or speed, you are losing your total energy state. Learn to balance the equations as well as you can, trade alt for speed, then trade speed back for alt.

Altitude=options

If you have altitude you can determine the method of the fight. You may have less overall Energy than the bogy, but he has to climb up to you giving you a planeform shot. Learn to use the options that altitude gives you. Altitude is like a freezer for speed. You can translate alt into speed quickly and effectively.

Speed=life

You use speed to strike and to get away. A fast attack gives you little room for shooting errors but much more latitude if you do miss. You can extend and come back for another pass. Remember that speed can be lost in a Varity of ways. Hard turns (and pulling up hard *IS* a turn) will drag your speed down faster than anything. Remember to conserve what you have and use it for later.

My basic advice for everyone is to use the alt to get position. Then trade that alt for speed, strike, and trade speed back for alt. In a perfect world we'd start at 10K 300 IAS and end at 10K 300 IAS. Learn to maximize your usage.

Remember that Energy is what allows you to maneuver. IF you get low and slow, you have depleted your energy and are easy pickings' because you cannot maneuver out of the way. You trade total energy for position and if you trade too much and fail to achieve your goals, that's when trouble sets in. Be conscious of your energy state relative to the enemy. It takes practice, but it will keep you out of trouble.

Overall remember that every fight is an energy fight. In fact a TnB fight is the most energy intensive fight there is. You are both relatively Co-E and you have to be the one to maintain it better than your opponent. I personally look at the TnB fight as the "Pure" Energy fight. A BnZ fight starts with one of the fights having a significant advantage, be it speed or Alt, or both. Either way an inferior fights like a Hurricane I can BnZ a Spit XIV into submission if it maintains an advantage (I did it once, thought it was one the coolest of fights )

In closing don't learn to fly by canned maneuvers. Evaluate what you need to do to get the guy in front of you, weight it against the Energy issues and fight the fight to kill him. Learn to maneuver the AC and learn what helps in certain situations. Don't learn "Split-S here." Or "High Yo-Yo There." because they can be applied in MANY different situations. Learn what that maneuver does, when it does it and learn to apply it whenever you need to.

Michael Weber

=Gryf=

CO Rogue Gryffons -BYA-

Spitfire posted 04-13-99 03:06 PM            

Bombjack,

Corner speed for the spit is at 250kts, 160 is close to is sustained turn speed. Remember, corner speed is the highest speed in which you can pull the highest amount of g and not blackout and/or damage the airplane. It also is the fastet instantaneous turn rate speed.

If you test this you will find that you will turn much faster starting at 250kts then 160kts.

This comes in handy when extending and reversing. Against a superior turning airplane, I like to extend to gain speed then reverse head on to neutralise the fight. It can be done in any plane, or obliquely.

If I need to drop down quick in a zoom, I drop flaps and pull really hard, because I am probably slower then corner I need that extra G from flaps to reverse quicker.

-spit-

"To win you must be prepared to lose."