Turning - Fast or Slow? - Last update - 29 January 1999 - Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:22:52 +1100   When trying to turn your AC as sharply as possible is it better to be going faster or slower? It seems to me from a gut feeling that you should be going slower as then you don't have such a larger turning circle (ie a jet fighter needs a lot of space to turn around in compared to a prop) but then I have read that the faster you are going the more lift or deflection or something the wings will generate on a bank and therefore you will turn faster. So which is correct?   Kingar Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:51:11 GMT   In article <36AC621B.569B98AB@bigpond.com>, Kingar <shazzah@bigpond.com> wrote:   Define "fast"   When you go slow your rate of turn may not be high, but your radius will be smaller. At high speeds (up to corner) your angular velocity will be higher, but your radius will also be higher. If you're trying to turn inside someone slow is probibly better (smaller radius).   On the other hand flat, horizontal turns are pretty much something for demonstrations and not combat. A circle of given size will have a much smaller 'footprint' in the horizontal plane if you tip it up into the vertical.   Take a dinner plate and hold it under a light parallel to the ground. It will make a circular shadow of fixed size depending on relative positions. Without moving it up or down tip it, and the shadow it casts will suddenly be elliptical with a smaller circumference.   Did any of that make sense?   -puck- is the old Geometer     Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:35:05 +1000   Turning at corner speed will give you the greatest turn rate available. That is, at corner you can get around that circle faster than you could if you were flying either faster or slower.   Flying at a very slow speed minimises turn radius, but the difference between turn radius at slow speed and corner speed is not that remarkable.   In combat, its turn rate that wins fights, and also enables you to evade an opponent's gunnery solution. So try to turn at corner speed for your particular aircraft. If you're travelling slower than corner, make a nose low turn, if faster than corner, a nose high turn.   The corner speeds of WB aircraft seem to range from about 145 mph for the early Zekes to approx 315 mph for the Fw190D9.     Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:18:52 -0500   Kingar <shazzah@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:36AC621B.569B98AB@bigpond.com... >When trying to turn your AC as sharply as possible is it better to be >going faster or slower? It seems to me from a gut feeling that you   Well, your "Gut" instinct is correct, there is a direct relationship between how fast you are going and how large your turn radius is going to be..   At extremely high speeds your turn radius is so large it takes a long time to complete a 180...so unless you were smart and converted that Speed to altitude by NOT turning in a flat circle..your prob. in trouble :) At EXTREMELY low speeds your turn can actually take pretty long to complete as well since your RATE of TURN..(In degrees/sec) is very slow too...   The radius might be smaller but you didn't get the "Pointy End" aimed back at the bad guy any faster..   In between EXT HIGH and EXT LOW is a "Sweet Spot" known ad the "Corner Velocity" of your plane its a range where your rate of sustained turn is highest..meaning you can turn a lot of degrees per second and continue to do that as long as you keep your speed in that range.   Since WB has a pretty broad range of planes, its hard to tell you the corner velocity for all..but between 250-300 is a pretty good place to be unless your in one of the ends of the spectrum..even then your not going to be grossly wrong.   There is always a lot of questions about this point, and the most people get confused by turn rate and turn radius...one is degrees per second and the other is a measured distance (Radius of the turn) They are both very important and very related.but the are not the same...   John "Jagr" Tasker IMOL Warbirds Training Staff trainers@imagiconline.com     Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:36:38 +1100   Thanks a lot. That was very informative. The hard part I guess will be trying to watch my airspeed indicator and fly at the same time. ;) I posted a question about trim here once and the responses I got beggared description in the complexity that some of the 'pilots' out there were going to. Trimming for this situation, then trimming when this happened! Man, there is a lot going on in this sim and I'm only scratching the surface (which I then lick my finger and rub hoping no one will notice the mark ;))   Kingar (just wishes he could logon, kill all the bad guys, receive all the wtg's, logoff and sleep the sleep of the righteous!)     Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:54:45 -0600   >When trying to turn your AC as sharply as possible is it better to be >going faster or slower?   First define "sharply as possible" and we can give you an answer. Its much more complicated than your language above can bare.   Sharply as in degrees of angle? Sharply, but not smartly as in time of the turn and degrees achieved per minutes?   You see you can be really slow and get a great angle per second but horrible angle per minute as your energy bleeds out.   The safest answer to your question now would be at "corner speed".   Worr, out       Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:58:08 -0600   >In combat, its turn rate that wins fights,   Hmm...that would depend too. For me it is instant turn rate that wins not sustained...and that all follows on positioning rather than pure muscle.   >The corner speeds of WB aircraft seem to range from about 145 mph for the >early Zekes to approx 315 mph for the Fw190D9.   Well, that should be KIAS not MPH. The corner velocity range is really about 150-240.   Worr, out     Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:00:24 -0600   >Since WB has a pretty broad range of planes, its hard to tell you the corner >velocity for all..but between 250-300 is a pretty good place to be unless >your in one of the ends of the spectrum..even then your not going to be >grossly wrong.   That's a good place to be, but I don't think that is a good corner velocity range in MPH for those who don't know the kind of planes you fly, jagr. :)   Maybe you meant KIAS?   Worr, out     Newsgroups: warbirds.training Subject: Re: Turning: Fast or slow is best? Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:12:55 +1100   Its difficult to explain these things in words as you probably well know. But I think the answers I got regarding corner speed do address the points that I was raising and relate to my question correctly. I wasn't asking "what is the best way to turn on to someones 6 who has just passed you at d20 below your ac" but more a general idea of wether a faster ac completes a horizontal turn (of 180 degrees say) quicker than a slower moving plane. I didn't state the question that way, but then it was more a 'Something that always bugged me is...' type of question that I thought up while reading the WEP posts above. Thanks for your reply nonetheless.   Kingar