eagl posted 02-28-99 10:28 PM ET (US)        

Oinks all!

So there we was, Val and I in our F4U's, doping around F17 at 10k, when we heard the call "massive red strike inbound 17 from 13" Being the helpful people we are, we vectored to the sighting, only to find what looked like 20 or so red F4U's (a squadron obviously) in a nice tight formation. Never one to let so many targets get through unopposed, val and I dove through the formation back to front, getting a kill or two, damaging several, and causing some of them to jettison ord.

10 minutes of BnZ, drag-n-bag, thatch-weave style running, and plain old teamwork, val and i had bagged 6 to 9 of these guys plus their first JU-52 on the scene. I got an aileron shot off early on so I possibly could have gotten even more kills while they were hitting a field that was already closed (oops) For a large portion of this fight, it was Val and myself against 20 reds, and even later on, there were only 2 other greens (rekkof and someone else) in the area.

Anyhow, my point was that if val and I can harass and shoot down a much larger number of planes with simple wingman tactics, others can too, since it wasn't even a planned thing. We just started flying together and it worked out. I'll explain exactly what methods we used if anyone wants...

Thanks to that red F4U squadron for being such good bandits for us (they finally pinned us down with 6 hawgs and we died), and a HUGE OINK! to Val for flying with me awhile. That's the best part of WB as far as I'm concerned... Alone I was getting one kill here and there, but together we harassed a very large number of planes for quite a while and got a bunch of kills against ridiculous odds, simply because we worked together. Teamwork is cool.

-eagl-

F'ing Pigs, BYA

jedi posted 03-01-99 12:29 AM ET (US)            

Well, I can't let that offer go by So what are your tips for wingman tactics? I generally have not much of a clue, other than the old, "I'll stay high and cover while you go down for a pass, then you stay high and I'll go down" method.

I can usually tell when I'm bein worked on by a "team," as opposed to two solo hunters, and I always know I have a chance when I can fight em one at a time, and almost no chance if they're workin together.

It's also kinda sad that we hardly ever see tactics and good techniques posted on the board. Sure, most guys will tell ya if you ask em specific questions, but it's almost like folks are either afraid of appearing condescending by "telling us how to fly," or reluctant to divulge their hard-earned secrets to the great unwashed mob

Maybe we should start a tactics forum? Would anyone post there? Hehe I only know about two tactics, but that's two more than some guys appear to understand. Still tryin to figure out how some guys can shake me off with a scissors every time, but when I try it, well, I get to hear the full variety of Voxx's "greatest hits."

Anyway, bring on the wingman tactics!

--jedi

Bombom posted 03-01-99 02:42 AM ET (US)            

Daff and I have been winging seriously for some five months now, flying strictly in line abreast and using sound wingman tactics to the best of our ability. It does pay off. Even mediocre pilots like myself earn kills this way

Two ships well handled can take on many times their number. If you have two by two, you're darn near invincible.

If you're a Jug pilot, call us up in the MA or HA and we'll share a few nuggets.

------------------

-bmbm- 56th FG

Cave Tonitrum

After Action Report: http://www.kylander.se/56th/diary.shtml

Werewolf posted 03-01-99 06:36 AM ET (US)            

Wingman tactics work! We had a scenario on the German server last night and our group of

6 P-40s opposed 8 Ki-84. Our luck that we had 3000 feet height advantage <g>. We split into 3 groups of 2 P-40s and engaged them. My segment leader an me scored 4 kills (2:2) and 3 assists (2:1). The whole squad destroyed 6 out of the 8 Ki-84s with no losses to the Japs.

Daff posted 03-01-99 06:36 AM ET (US)            

As Bmbm said...keep seperation!..line abreast is the best formation for both defensive & offensive purposes.

I've several times bounced a squad flying in a close gaggle and gotten a free kill as everyone was occupied flying nice & close to eachother. Had anyone of them been alone, they would most likely have spotted me.

We usually keep about d10-15 between us, more in the 47C. First of all, we can check eachothers 6 that way, even lo 6, with a very quick scan.

Another thing is scanning "technique"; Mainly scan inwards, towards your wingman..he'll be doing the same, so your outside is covered.

Comms & SOP's. For vox-handicapped, define a set of shorthands for comms..in, off, out, bug (with a direction), nv (no vis), etc.

Dont TnB! Even if you're in a turn-happy plane, use BnZ/E fighting...if you TnB, especially in a multi-bogey enviroment, you'll quickly lose sight of your wingie as your SA degrades and you effectivly nullify any mutual support.

Use pre-determind tactics for defensive & offensive...if a con dives, both should know which way to turn

The thatch-weave is also -very- good, especially if you're trying to disengage.

Set up the bogey when attacking with brackets, fly loose deuce to keep pushing the bogey...DONT saddle up!. (Sure, do it for a couple of turns if you get a good opportunity, but if you dont get a good guns solution within a couple of turns, break off and extend/zoom...chances are that he'll try to follow you and your wingman can pick him off )

Main thing is to work together, not as an individual as most people tend to, even when flying with their squad...think ahead of how the bogey will react to your wingies move and set your self up for a shot on him...dont just go chasing the bogey blindly. Consider any kill your wingie get as a team kill. I've flown many sorties where bmbm raked up the kills, with none to me, but still had a great time and a real feeling of kickin' serious butt

Daff

56th Fighter Group

"Gentlemen! You cant fight in here! This is the WarRoom!"

(Dr. Strangelove)

DocDoom posted 03-01-99 08:09 AM ET (US)            

A long time ago I was juct cruising around in my Fw190A-4 when I came upon another Fw190, I don't know what kind but I do know that there were SEVEN enemy planes attacking it, and they were Spitfires(2), Fw190s(2), a P-38, a Zero and a Hurricane.

I bounced the group, all in line astern trying to follow the friendly Fw190's evasive manoeuvres. I smoked the Hurricane and the P-38, then blewup the Spitfire closest to my countryman's tail on the same pass. I pulled high just before the overshoot and winged over to see the reaction to my attack.

Almost immediately, the pursuing enemy aircraft all broke in different directions. To my great delight, the friendly Fw190 pilot saw exactly what was happening and pulled up and did a sliceback reversal as the threat behind him broke off. He bagged the P-38 as it turned back into him, and extended while I dived on the planes that fell in behind for the tag.

Although we did not know each other, and had not winged together or were not equipped with any prior "plan" ... it was clear we had the same ideas. We worked that group on the loose duece principle of attack-break off-other guy attack-break off-attack again ... until the only 2 aircraft left were us.

We RTB'd with little to say to each other than "thanks" and "well done" ... I have never seen him again but the evidence was clear ... 2 pilots in aircraft that were inferior to nearly 4 times their number in all but sheer top speed or acceleration, can easily defeat them if they fly "together" and the enemy flies "individually".

I always wait for the moment that another pilot who thinks just the way that I do comes along ... I know we are going to clean up big time when that happens

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

funked posted 03-01-99 11:44 AM ET (US)            

Yeah Doc I love those!

There are a bunch of guys out there (you know who you are!) who don't always fly with wingmen, but know how to loose-deuce it when the situation arises.

Sometimes you don't even have to talk on the radio, you can just tell by how they are flying that they are thinking the same thing as you are.

I love this stuff!

avin posted 03-01-99 12:24 PM ET (US)            

eagl and val, winging together in the MA?

Dammit, didn't both of you quit, never to return? Hardly seems fair <g>

funked, it was cool hanging 5K over the red cloud with you last night. It's good to know who you can trust to drag, as opposed to the studs that try and make every kill themselves....

avin

funked posted 03-01-99 06:29 PM ET (US)            

Heheh Avin thanks. Nice flying on your part!

I actually lost sight of you there for a while but it turned out pretty dang well!

eagl posted 03-01-99 09:37 PM ET (US)            

Avin,

Me quit? NEVER! I've taken leave-of-absence breaks from WB, usually when I'm deployed overseas, but I've never "quit". A few times I've stopped flying for a while because the game started pissing me off, and right now my ISP is making flying fighters an exercise in frustration.

Fly to fight, wait for yellow beacon to come on, and circle. As soon as beacon goes green, immediately attack anything within D-20, and be ready to abort attack if beacon goes yellow before the attack concludes. When beacon goes yellow, because I usually have anywhere between 20 seconds and 5 minutes green, immediately begin an evasive climb because sometimes my packets are getting to iMOL just fine so I show up on everyone elses FE normally, I just can't see them on MY FE. As soon as beacon goes green again anywhere between 5 and 45 seconds later, find nearest opponent and attack, or find wingman and clear his 6 in the short time I have with a good beacon.

I've been flying bombers an awful lot...

-eagl-

F'ing Pigs, BYA

DocDoom posted 03-01-99 10:28 PM ET (US)            

-eagl-

You just described my gameplay experiences (the Beacon Blues, key of Em, 1999@G.R.E.) almost perfectly.

Amazing how great it feels to have a 3/1 K/D

I haven't resorted to flying bombers yet (but have flown *some* buffs/Ju52s so maybe we share another similarity) but I *do* fly a lot of dedicated "buff intercept" missions.

Something about the target being straight and level (with hilarious exceptions) seems to mean it only warps/blinks-out-and-in/gyrates a little, instead of a lot

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

buile posted 03-02-99 01:08 AM ET (US)            

Howdy All,

Here's a cut and paste i had sent to my squaddies a month ago to try to rev us up to practice wingman tactics. The post is part demonstrative, part diatribe?

Here is a little note on a hvy 110 sortie that i made [in the Accordian War HA]. I joined up in an impromptu manner with Seahwk who was also in a 110 with bombs. We were on our way to tag F19. On our way to target, a Spit came in from our 9 to attack us. I alert Seahwk. The Spit ended up deciding that i was his target and got on my 6. I alert Seahwk again, but he takes no action. Ok, the 110 is not going to outrun the Spit. I am *not* going to do any evasives yet since the Spit is not in firing distance; that will only serve to blow my speed and let him catch up quicker. Wingman is not doing anything yet. The situation is deteriorating *quickly*.

"Seahwk, circle around behind the Spit." Ok, great, he is complying. I keep a good eye on the Spit to see if he attempts to follow Seahwk instead. Nope, the Spit is still coming after my 6 as Seahwk goes up and around-- a very good lazy circle to get behind him. Finally the Spit realizes he is sandwiched (a fried-egg sandwich if he keeps flying straight) and breaks.

I begin a circle toward Seahwk in case the Spit begins an attack on Seahwk. Seahwk continues flying on to target (perfect-- allows us to get to target, and it brings him close to me again) and sure enough the Spit wants a piece of him. So i continue *my* lazy circle around behind him. We sandwich the Spit again. The Spit breaks away just as i am getting into guns range. Me and Seahwk are keeping up our progress to our target. The Spit apparently is frustrated. He manuevers hard to try to attack me, but Seahwk has lazy-circled around behind him. Spit changes his attack to Seahwk. I circle around as the Spit is really pressing to get Seahwk who ends up having to make a pretty hard defensive manuever. I'm right on him though. I light up the Spit with some heavy firepower. *Amazingly* the Spit survives a full volley from the 110. The Spit breaks off his attack on Seahwk.

A 109 shows up and takes over on the Spit, driving him down to low alt. Me and Seahwk form up and continue on to F19 to drop our eggs with 1 enemy Spit damaged, no hits at all on me, and either minor or no damage on Seahwk. If Seahwk did not make the original circling manuever, we would have been at a distinct disadvantage *regardless* of the fact that it was 1 on 2: the Spit would have already started his attack on me, and Seahwk would not have been in any position to quickly and effectively help. My plane may have been crippled or destroyed, and then it would have been simply a 1 vs 1 fight: a Spit vs a hvy 110, and who should win that fight, eh? [a little interjection here. The 1 on 2 scenario allows a wingman to be *proactive* and not reactive-- much like what Daff said: "think ahead of how the bogey will react to your wingies move and set your self up for a shot on him"]

Instead, we used a certain tactic (it was almost like a 2-plane forward-moving Lufberry-- which proved to be very effective) to pre-empt the Spit's attacks and come away unscathed with our bombs still on our racks, and in great form to carry out our mission. Only at the very end of the fight did we have to do hard manuevering; the rest was all energy-conserving lazy up-and-over circles. We cooperated in a way that transcended two planes just helping each other out; it was way cool i thought. You know how they say that with teamwork, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

[clip]

The 2 vs 1 scenario is what should set us apart from the rest. Most other flyers, even if they are trying to be wingmen, deteriorate into 2 sets of single-plane flying. I see it time and time again. In one very hairy fight in the HA i was finally able to get an alt advantage over attacking Hurris and P-40s. The battle thinned out and i found 2 enemy cons below me. They were P-40s flying pretty close together. I was like, hmm, i'd better be careful with these 2. They must know what they are doing since it looks like they stuck together throughout the fight. I manuevered into an attack position. The trailing P-40 got skitzy and turned away. A quick check to see what his flight-leader is doing... nothing. Heh, now's my chance. I dove in on the trailer and smoked his engine. For all intents and purposes, he was out of the fight. Soon enough his engine quit, and i was already off looking to help out fellow LW.

What it boiled down to is that they were not effective wingmen; they were 2 separate planes occupying close airspace. If those two were really flying wingman tactics, they would not have given me a good chance like that to attack. All that trailing P-40 had to do was keep flying with his buddy. Or, after tail-end charlie separated, the flight leader needed to do a little posturing to convince me that if i attacked the other, that he would be right on my ass. I would not have attacked if either of those things happened.

-----------------

Hope that adds to the discussion,

buile-