This is the transcript of a radio interview Gilbert did with Ian Dempsey on Today FM in Ireland on the 16th March 2004 on the occasion of the release of his greatest hits album called "The Berry Vest of Gilbert O'Sullivan".
As an introduction Ian played "GET DOWN".
IAN: That's from 1973. That is "Get Down" from a man who loves the French, loves Paris, loves to walk, his philosophy is to think negative and act positive, he doesn't trust electric kettles, always make them boil for longer than set, he'd rather wash a cup and saucer than use the dishwasher, he finds sweeping whether in the house or the yard therapeutic. It can only be one person: Raymond Edward O'Sullivan born in Waterford back on the 1st of December in 1946. Who are we talking about? You've probably got it at this stage. This chap:
Ian plays "JANUARY GIT"
IAN: Yes you're absolutely right, our special guest for Tuesday this week is Gilbert O'Sullivan, the legend that is sitting right across from me now, Gilbert you are very welcome to our Today FM studios.
GILBERT: Thank you Ian nice to be here.
IAN: And well you're looking too, so you're obviously looking after yourself are you?
GILBERT: (laughing) I hope so.
IAN: There is still a huge following for Gilbert O'Sullivan, I mean you have your own website gilbertosullivan.com but there are a lot of other people who follow you, fan sites and all that. So there's still a great interest in your music isn't there?
GILBERT: Well I guess so. The net doesn't interest me. We have an official site but I've never looked at it. I'm not really into that. I think there's too much information. Kind of a dangerous thing from my point of view but yeah of course I have a fairly big following. My following in Ireland is probably the worst.
IAN: Really?
GILBERT: Again I was telling somebody the other day I sell more records in Mozambique than I do in Ireland..........and I don't sell many over there. Which is interesting, it's a fact but a lot of people in Ireland like me but they are not necessarily people who go out today and buy records. So the key in 2004 if you want to be a contemporary writer is to get your music across to an audience that are interested in buying CDs and stuff, and that's a younger audience. I would think the majority of younger people in Ireland wouldn't know who I was. Their parents would do. The majority of younger people would know who The Thrills were, would know who David Kitt was, would know who David Gray was and Damien Rice but they wouldn't have a clue about me so that's the kind of challenge for me.
IAN: Alright well tell them who you are then!
GILBERT: Well I don't have to. I mean you make a record and if one of them hears it and likes it, that's all it takes.
IAN: Would you say that a lot of your music or a all your music is autobiographical?
GILBERT: It's not autobiographical at all.
IAN: Is it not?
GILBERT: No I don't think so. It comes out of your mind but it's third person. If you're talking about a serious subject in a particular song it doesn't have to be autobiographical. It can be just your views on a subject like that written in a thoughtful way as opposed to a humorous way.
IAN: What do you think is the finest song that you've ever written?
GILBERT: What I find interesting is the songs for me, my favourite songs are never the most successful, the "Clairs" and "Alone Agains" and "Nothing Rhymed". "Nothing Rhymed" will always be special because it was the first of course ,but it's album tracks because as you know you're not just making one record every time you make an album you are making ten or twelve songs. So my favourites tend to be album tracks or a b-side for example in Japan now they've just issues a b-side collection: "The Other Sides of Gilbert O'Sullivan" and that was an interesting experience because we had to relocate all those and we also had to give them all the lyrics and half the lyrics I didn't even know what they were about even though I'd written them. So that was an interesting experience. I was like hearing somebody I'd never heard before and there was a few of them I thought "that's really good that". There was something nice about that and I tend to pick on something that isn't particularly well known. There's a track on "The Berry Vest of" which we are putting out called "Miss My Love Today" and that appears to be a track that's off a 1977 album (Southpaw), that's a track that a lot of people hearing it today, people at EMI, people at Sony Music Publishing who are not really into me, have heard and really like. For me that's kinda nice because it puts me in a position of getting something across to an audience that are not really into me.
IAN: Well we've got three choices and it's our challenge to try and find your songs. Now are you picking out songs that you wrote yourself or are these other people's songs?
GILBERT: Why on earth would I pick out three songs of my own?
IAN: So who have you got first?
GILBERT: The first one I would pick would be The Everly Brothers singing "Temptation". If you like it's almost the first Beatle's record because it's in a way, before the Beatles in terms of vocal groups, there weren't. There was the Shadows, there was Cliff (Richard), mostly solo singers, pre-Beatles and stuff. But The Everly Brothers had a that kind of vocal sound to them, that harmony sound to them that was quite unique and I always remember at school the impact of "Temptation" was almost, it almost had the effect that later records by the Beatles had. So in away it's almost for me it's like the first Beatles record in terms of the effect.
IAN: Was it pre-Beatle?
GILBERT: Absolutely it was 1960.
IAN: So this could have been the inspiration, giving them the freedom to do it.
GILBERT: There was no question that The Everly Brothers influenced the Beatles in terms of two part harmony. Lennon and McCartney singing harmony were heavily influenced. I think Little Richard was quoted as saying when somebody said "why didn't the Beatles happen in the States for three or four years after they happened in the UK?" He said "well we already had the Beatles in America, we had The Everly Brothers". So they had a really significant effect I think influence on the Beatles.
IAN: So Gilbert it's "Temptation" The Every Brothers.
Ian played "TEMPTATION" by The Every Brothers.
IAN: Gilbert O'Sullivan is our special guest on Tuesday this week picking out his favourite songs. One down and two to go. And of course your greatest hits album, you've always had a good play on words, the album is called "The Berry Vest of Gilbert O'Sullivan". Has that been in your mind for a while?
GILBERT: Well you know, you know yourself how many Best Of's are you looking at every other day of the week. How many attempts to say 20 Most Beautiful Songs, The All Time Greats. Everybody tries it, Peter Gabriel released an album called "Hit". Joni Mitchell released one called "Hits"
IAN: There was one the Housemartins had "Now That's What I Call Quite Good"
GILBERT: It's just my way, I said to EMI I've got this idea for a cover for a title instead of saying The Very Best Of, we call it The Berry Vest Of. The cover has the vest on. It's just a nice play on words on a clichéd title.
IAN: And it sounds like every DJ is making a mistake when they back announce it as well which I suppose is good in a way. I was just looking at your site, I know you don't look at it very often but what is your favourite Gilbert O'Sullivan song? According to the fans that go into that, 42.7% of them go for "Alone Again (Naturally)", then "Nothing Rhymed" after that, "Matrimony", "Clair" and "Get Down". Andy Williams wanted to do one of your songs, "We Will" wasn't it?
GILBERT: He wanted to record "We Will" but he didn't know what 'bagsy' meant so he asked me if he could change it.
IAN: There's a line 'Bagsy being in goal'.
GILBERT: 'Bagsy being in goal' which is very English. "We Will" is a very Catholic song and it is a very much a family orientated sort of typical...you know 'leave the landing light on'. The sort of things we would say. And 'bagsy' I've always loved...I like words anyway. As a lyricist I have great fun with words and word play. The Americans use the clichés of the American...they use a lot of American words and I don't like to see English writers using Americanisms. Having said that Americans have no problem....we seem to have no problem using Americanisms.
IAN: Exactly if they come in songs we'll accept them no problem.
GILBERT: But American's will never accept......
IAN: I remember there was an Elton John song called "Sartorial Eloquence" and they had to change it to "Don't You Want To Play This Game No More" because I think they thought the Americans may not have understood the whole thing. Now listen in the very early days where did the image come from, the first image, you know the short trousers and all that?
GILBERT: Well the cap and boots, the Chaplin jacket, it wasn't short trousers. That was for a picture and stuff. The short trousers was just for an impact. The key was that I was in 1967 in the middle of Flower Power, I just wanted to be different. It's like calling your album "The Berry Vest Of" instead of The Very Best Of. Anything to be different. Long hair was here to stay. The record company said "look like James Taylor" and you'll be fine. Your songs are really good you don't need to do this. I just wanted to do it. I just loved Chaplin, I loved Keaton. I use to hire the Chaplin jacket from Berman's, the theatrical costumers, cut the hair really short, pudding basin haircut which is ironically enough when you look at most pictures of 70s artists they look pretty dated because of the long hair and the boots, the high heel boots and things but when you look at the early O'Sullivan pictures with the cap and the boots, it actually looks quite fashionable because of the hair, the short hair. It was just my own idea and it was something I wanted to do. I was determined to do it and I was able to.
IAN: But as well as that the imagery in the songs and the lyrics, always very rich lyrics in your songs. It was almost like a black and white movie on an afternoon on BBC 2 with the songs and the image that went along with it.
GILBERT: Do you reckon?
IAN: Would you agree with that?
GILBERT: I don't analyse what I do, I just do it. That's for people like you to draw that conclusion. But if that's what you feel, I'm happy with it.
IAN: In those days as well there've been a few books written about the way management worked and I know you had your problems with management with Gordon Mills who is now deceased. It was a different era, a different time, the artist wasn't as well looked after as they are today.
GILBERT: In the 60s and the 70s there was a lot going on that was....I won't call it corrupt but there was a lot of practices that wouldn't be acceptable today. Artists have far more power today. If you were going to be signed by a record company tomorrow they would immediately advise you to get a lawyer whereas when I signed, my mother signed for me for my first publishing deal because I was underage. There was no lawyer. You wouldn't be allowed to do that today. So artists are far more protected today than they were in my day. But in terms of those kind of practices, for me I was quite happy, all I wanted was an agreement to be able to get my songs published, an agreement to be able to make a record. So for example my naivety stretched to the point where when April Music the publishers said "we don't want to sign you for three years we want to sign you for five years". I saw that as a victory for me.
IAN: That was a bonus yeah.
GILBERT: Whereas in retrospect it actually worked against me because realistically you shouldn't sign for that long a period. But in my naive approach which I'm glad I was blessed with because all I was concerned about was the musical input. I said to my Mum "Mum they want me for five years, isn't that great it could have been just three". So there's something nice about that but there is a black side. But these days it's very different. Today most artists are heavily protected and lawyers will make sure that they don't get caught out and precedence have been set including by myself to ensure that those practices don't happen.
IAN: I'm sure it was the same for Elvis Presley with Colonel Tom Parker. would you say that it was the same kind of thing that he was just being led around?
GILBERT: I think the naivety of Parker and (Brian) Epstein was only that they were entering into an area that nobody had ever been in before. Nobody had ever encountered the kind of success that Presley got, nobody had ever come across the kind of success the Beatles had. So when Epstein was landed with all these kinds of opportunities, there's the talk of giving the wigs and the tee shirts and all that stuff and Epstein taking a 15% for that. Somebody pointed out he should have been getting 90% of that but in those days nobody had done that kind of merchandising.
IAN: It was all new, virgin territory.
GILBERT: Virgin territory absolutely.
IAN: So your next choice then. Nice piece of music?
GILBERT: My next choice is Tommy Tucker "High Heel Sneakers"
IAN: Ah for God's sake. Will we be able to find that will will?
GILBERT: I hope so.
IAN: Tommy Tucker "High Heel Sneakers".
GILBERT: Fantastic title and it's that riff that we all as youngsters when we heard it we all went to our guitars and our keyboards and played it. It was the beginning of that riff when you play the record you will know. It was just a very significant record for many people and a fantastic title. The title conjures up so much great imagery. It's a great record.
IAN: Okay.
Ian plays Tommy Tucker "High Heel Sneakers" followed by "Alone Again (Naturally)"
IAN: Okay coming up to our final choice with Gilbert O'Sullivan in the studio today on Today FM for our Tuesday slot. Gilbert I just want to ask you about somebody wanted to use "Alone Again (Naturally)" a sample of it a guy called Biz Markie in the USA and there was a kind of landmark decision made. Why first of all did you not want it to be used?
GILBERT: Because I own "Alone Again". I own the rights to it, I own the master rights to it. I protect it. Going back to what we were discussing earlier about the lyrical content being humorous. And "Alone Again" is one of those songs because of the lyrical content it mustn't get abused. So anybody who requests to use it whether it be in a film or whether it be to record it, we make sure that it's not been used for comical purposes. So when Biz Markie approached us in '91 whenever it was to sample, he only wanted to sample the intro and what he would do is he would sample it and....
IAN: Just the musical intro?
GILBERT: Just the musical intro then it would play for three or four minutes and he would rap over it. He was a huge very successful.....we discovered he was a comic. His whole persona was comical so we said no and they'd sent me a version of it. It was inoffensive but when we discovered that he was a comic I didn't like the way that he rapped over it and because of his humour we said no. It's just not allowed but the way those kind of organisation operate in those days, they didn't really care. So we told them to withdraw it and they didn't do it so I had to then go to court in New York.
IAN: If they had recorded another version of it.
GILBERT: As the publisher I wouldn't have allowed that either.
IAN: Once it's out in the public domain can they just not do that?
GILBERT: No you are protected. There's copyright protection. If you wanted to release a version of one of my songs you'd have to get permission to do it but the point was anyway this was the master use and so the good thing was that Biz Markie's company was distributed by Warner Brothers which were a major, major company. So when it went to court the judge after a few days of them saying "we didn't mean to do it" but you did it, the judge was getting really irritated. It turned out that because they wouldn't withdraw it and we were in court the judge told them that if they didn't remove this track by the weekend he would have every Warner Brothers product that was available in America stopped. So within ten minutes of getting back from the courtroom it was settled.
IAN: So it was gone, it was over.
GILBERT: It was gone.
IAN: Alright Gilbert, one other thing I wanted to ask you about was the song, it got into the top 40, just outside the top 40, "A Woman's Place" is in the home and it caused a bit of consternation amongst the feminists. How do you feel about that now?
GILBERT: The real title is as I say on stage when we do it 'a woman's place isn't at home', or 'a woman's place is off the bone'. But we do it on stage. It's become part of the stage act. I don't regret doing it because as a lyricist I like the battle between men and women, I like the conflict albeit that I don't like people to hurt each other. As a lyricist if you are writing song lyrics and stuff they can't all be 'lovey dovey'. The conflict very often is a very interesting way of approaching a lyric. So "A Woman's Place" is in the home, that was a view I took and I still have that view because if you actually read the lyric I think it set's it out. But it came out at a time when Women's Lib were really happening big. 'Woman's Hour' devoted a whole hour to it. But we do it on stage, what we do is the chorus at the end 'a woman's place is in the home'. What we do is divide the audience, the pro and against. So those who believe a woman's place is in the home sing and on the other side if you don't believe that you can say 'if that's the case you're on your own'. But we did it in Australia, I did it in Sydney and I thought the Australian male....
IAN: He'll be with me on this one.
GILBERT: He'll be with me on this one. Wow! Talk about a bunch of wimps. When it came to the chorus and the women, it was mostly women obviously who sang it 'if that's the case you're on your own', they brought the house down. The men, the wimps you heard maybe three men singing 'a woman's place is in the home'. That's quite funny.
IAN: Is that on the "Berry"?
GILBERT: No, it's not.
IAN: Now we do this with everyone of our guests who come in on a Tuesday and that's 'how in touch with reality you are'. Do you mind this will only take a couple of moments?
GILBERT: Okay.
IAN: Let's see how you get on. Seeing that you are a Waterford man you might know this, five questions two points each: who will represent Ireland in this year's Eurovision Song Contest?
GILBERT: He's a Waterford chap and I only found that out because I saw it on TV last night, but that's all I know.
IAN: Can't remember his name....Chris Doran
GILBERT: But I wish him well, my home town right?
IAN: Who's currently high in the charts with the song "Toxic"?
GILBERT: Oh that's Britney Spears.
IAN: Very good. What TV presenter recently announced that he is leaving 'Stars In Their Eyes' after eleven years?
GILBERT: Would that be Matthew...
IAN: Irish name...most famous Irish name after Murphy...starts with a 'K'.
GILBERT: Matthew Kelly.
IAN: A remake of 70s classic show has just hit cinemas?
GILBERT: Starsky and Hutch.
IAN: And one more. Do you know who won 'I'm a celebrity get me out of here' a few weeks ago?
GILBERT: The wife of Bryan McFaddan. I didn't watch it. But obviously I know it.
IAN: You'd be good for that actually wouldn't you?
GILBERT: I wouldn't do it in a zillion years.
IAN: I know you wouldn't do it (laughing).
GILBERT: It's turn off time for me I'm afraid.
IAN: Alright listen your final choice Gilbert and thanks a million for coming in to us to the and the album "Piano Foreplay" is out there and also "The Berry Vest of Gilbert O'Sullivan" in the shops at the moment. So what's your final choice?
GILBERT: My final choice is James Taylor's version of "Oh Susanna". And the reason I picked "Oh Susanna" is because you're probably conscious of the likes of Irvin Berlin, Rogers and Hart, early 20th century songwriters who led the way for the Cole Porters and the Rodgers and Hammerstein, they came later and the Bacharach and David which led to Goffin and King which led to Sedaka Greenfield which led to Lennon McCartney and to us. But who were the people that influenced Irvin Berlin as you need to be influenced to be able do it and Stephen Foster is arguably the first contemporary songwriter that we know of, and he wrote "Oh Susanna", "I Dream of Genie With The Light Brown Hair". He was wonderful writer, beautiful melodies, very sensitive lyrics. James Taylor's version of "Oh Susanna" is really nice. He's (Foster) the first contemporary songwriter of the 20th century which then led to where we are today. For me he's a very significant person. I listen to Stephen Foster historically because as a songwriter I'm interested in all writers. So historically I'm aware and have read about him, very sad life too, so the versions of his songs are to be found sung even in the 21st century.
IAN: James Taylor "Oh Susanna", Gilbert thank you very much.
GILBERT: Right Ian.
IAN: It's been a pleasure talking to you
GILBERT: And you.
IAN: Cheers!
Ian played "OH SUSANNA" by James Taylor.
