posted 08 August 2003 11:16 AM         

Another season down the drain and we are still no closer to the Holy Grail.

What went wrong?

Why in the space of 2 years,have we gone from beating the Munster Champs in their own backyard,beating Waterford after being 11 points down,and playing superbly in a Munster Final against the eventual AI Champions,have we been reduced to a feeling of relief that Offaly beat us so we could avoid a hammering by Tipp in the Q finals.

We have the same players available to us now as 2 years ago,and we have won the last 3 AI Under 21's.

How the fcuk did we fall from grace so quickly?

THE CREGAN FACTOR

The wheels started to come off back in Feb 2002 when Cregan quit..ironically after a good win and performance v Wexford in the League.
This conflict was never resloved satisfatorily,and ultimatly led to humiliation by Tipp in the Championship,and consequent defeat to the worst prepared Cork team of all time.

Did this particlar row cause a split in the panel?.Did Dave Keane unwittingly walk into a situation not of his own making?..ie an unhappy camp from a previous row?

I am convinced that there is still a residue of bad feeling from this particular row,and was always going to make Dave Keane's job even more difficult.

DAVE KEANE/MARK FOLEY

As far back as November, I had heard from reliable sources that our Manager and Captain did not see eye to eye.
The non denials from the Adare gang on this forum only increased my uneasiness.
The fact that they were clubmates did not help the situation..

The rumours seemed to be confirmed when Mark apparently quit the panel in Feb this year(that month again!).

Despite denials,the seeds were sown for what proved to be a nightmare season for both men.
So,Who's to blame?

Dave Keane

First off,DK was the ONLY man who hd the credentials to take over from Cregan.
He got maximum results from the talent at his disposal,so now the likes of Dave Stapleton,Brian Carroll,and Micky Cahill have played in and won,All Ireland Finals,and have All Ireland medals...despite having no success whatever at relevant Minor years.

However,Dave made mistakes very early in his tenure:

-He seemed too keen to me,to give soundbite interviews to every Tom Dick and Harry before the start of the League.
His comment regarding hulers "peaking between 18-25"..has come back to haunt him,paricularly as he stands accused of bias towards his U21 players.

-Following a reasonable performance in the first game in the league v Cork,it was a huge mistake to agree to travel to Thurles for the second game v Tipp.
Again,in another interview,Dave suggested that this game be played in Croke Park..giving more ammunition to his would be detractors.
This game played on a wet and wintry Saturday,and clashing with a Rugby match on TV,attracted abot 3,000 people.
This game should have been played in Kilmallock-period.
Tipp destroyed us,the good points in the Cork performance were nullified,confidence was knocked,and Dave and Mark had a blazing row in the dressing room.
We never recovered from this day.

-The selection of players on the Senior panel,who could not even make the previous years U21 team..was a mistake...and lent further credence to his apparent bias towards his "boys".
Jack Foley,and Clement Smith,should NEVER have been left off the panel.
The fact that Jack is Mark's younger brother did not help a delicate situation either..a bit of tact/diplomacy could have been used by Keane on this occasion.
This is a moot point..Jack deserved to be there on merit anyway.

Mark Foley

Mark has had a bad season,and appeared unhappy and sulky on the field.
He is not a natural captain,and his own performances has suffered as a result.

2 years ago,he was the best hurler in Ireland,now,he is not even the best wing back in Munster.

Whatever the circumstances in the camp, I dont believe that Mark was operating to 100% of his ability or effort..the first half performance v Kerry,for example,was shocking.

The point I am making is..whatever his grievances with management..Mark's performances on the field,as our Captain and best player,did not inspire.

THE DRINKING CLIQUE

No question..there were 4 or 5 panel members,and crucially a member of the Management team who had set up a drinking clique within the camp.

The fact that these players continued to be picked caused justifeid resentment amongst the players who toed the line..and we lost some panel members as a result.

The final straw was surely,when Ciaran walked off the panel a week before the Offaly game,but was the first sub to be introduced during the game,while those who stayed loyal to the cause,remained in the dugout...another big mistake by Keane.

Ciaran should not have been invited back on to the panel.

It is hardly a surprise then,that given this background,we had the season that we had.

And yet...And yet...we were a puck of the ball away from a Munster Final,which proves that while the talent is there..the commitment,is not.

This is not consolation for me...in fact,it makes it even more galling.

I need to stop now... I will come back with a note on our future prospects,and each player's future prospects,on Monday.

All is not lost.

posted 08 August 2003 11:24 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by GUNTHER:

Well Lads..

Another season down the drain and we are still no closer to the Holy Grail.

What went wrong?

Why in the space of 2 years,have we gone from beating the Munster Champs in their own backyard,beating Waterford after being 11 points down,and playing superbly in a Munster Final against the eventual AI Champions,have we been reduced to a feeling of relief that Offaly beat us so we could avoid a hammering by Tipp in the Q finals.

We have the same players available to us now as 2 years ago,and we have won the last 3 AI Under 21's.

How the fcuk did we fall from grace so quickly?

THE CREGAN FACTOR

The wheels started to come off back in Feb 2002 when Cregan quit..ironically after a good win and performance v Wexford in the League.
This conflict was never resloved satisfatorily,and ultimatly led to humiliation by Tipp in the Championship,and consequent defeat to the worst prepared Cork team of all time.

Did this particlar row cause a split in the panel?.Did Dave Keane unwittingly walk into a situation not of his own making?..ie an unhappy camp from a previous row?

I am convinced that there is still a residue of bad feeling from this particular row,and was always going to make Dave Keane's job even more difficult.

DAVE KEANE/MARK FOLEY

As far back as November, I had heard from reliable sources that our Manager and Captain did not see eye to eye.
The non denials from the Adare gang on this forum only increased my uneasiness.
The fact that they were clubmates did not help the situation..

The rumours seemed to be confirmed when Mark apparently quit the panel in Feb this year(that month again!).

Despite denials,the seeds were sown for what proved to be a nightmare season for both men.
So,Who's to blame?

Dave Keane

First off,DK was the ONLY man who hd the credentials to take over from Cregan.
He got maximum results from the talent at his disposal,so now the likes of Dave Stapleton,Brian Carroll,and Micky Cahill have played in and won,All Ireland Finals,and have All Ireland medals...despite having no success whatever at relevant Minor years.

However,Dave made mistakes very early in his tenure:

-He seemed too keen to me,to give soundbite interviews to every Tom Dick and Harry before the start of the League.
His comment regarding hulers "peaking between 18-25"..has come back to haunt him,paricularly as he stands accused of bias towards his U21 players.

-Following a reasonable performance in the first game in the league v Cork,it was a huge mistake to agree to travel to Thurles for the second game v Tipp.
Again,in another interview,Dave suggested that this game be played in Croke Park..giving more ammunition to his would be detractors.
This game played on a wet and wintry Saturday,and clashing with a Rugby match on TV,attracted abot 3,000 people.
This game should have been played in Kilmallock-period.
Tipp destroyed us,the good points in the Cork performance were nullified,confidence was knocked,and Dave and Mark had a blazing row in the dressing room.
We never recovered from this day.

-The selection of players on the Senior panel,who could not even make the previous years U21 team..was a mistake...and lent further credence to his apparent bias towards his "boys".
Jack Foley,and Clement Smith,should NEVER have been left off the panel.
The fact that Jack is Mark's younger brother did not help a delicate situation either..a bit of tact/diplomacy could have been used by Keane on this occasion.
This is a moot point..Jack deserved to be there on merit anyway.

Mark Foley

Mark has had a bad season,and appeared unhappy and sulky on the field.
He is not a natural captain,and his own performances has suffered as a result.

2 years ago,he was the best hurler in Ireland,now,he is not even the best wing back in Munster.

Whatever the circumstances in the camp, I dont believe that Mark was operating to 100% of his ability or effort..the first half performance v Kerry,for example,was shocking.

The point I am making is..whatever his grievances with management..Mark's performances on the field,as our Captain and best player,did not inspire.

THE DRINKING CLIQUE

No question..there were 4 or 5 panel members,and crucially a member of the Management team who had set up a drinking clique within the camp.

The fact that these players continued to be picked caused justifeid resentment amongst the players who toed the line..and we lost some panel members as a result.

The final straw was surely,when Ciaran walked off the panel a week before the Offaly game,but was the first sub to be introduced during the game,while those who stayed loyal to the cause,remained in the dugout...another big mistake by Keane.

Ciaran should not have been invited back on to the panel.

It is hardly a surprise then,that given this background,we had the season that we had.

And yet...And yet...we were a puck of the ball away from a Munster Final,which proves that while the talent is there..the commitment,is not.

This is not consolation for me...in fact,it makes it even more galling.

I need to stop now... I will come back with a note on our future prospects,and each player's future prospects,on Monday.

All is not lost.

---

posted 08 August 2003 04:04 PM         

However, time is on your side. Cool heads are need to get back on track over the winter months. Do these people exist?

posted 08 August 2003 10:09 PM         

For Limerick to become a force in senior hurling a lot of guys have to hit the right notes. Theres no point in the supporters getting worked up over Limerick prospects if all 30 players on the panel dont want to make the sacrifices it takes win an All Ireland. Half of them breaking their h*les is no good, a plane wont fly on one wing. Its all or nothing, If those that are there wont give it all, then simply say bye bye and replace them with people who will give everything. Think of the guys who lost out on the trials, Paudie Reale, Willie Walsh, Kevin Tobin etc., guys who'd give their right arm to get another cut at it. If all the boys inside aint giving it, theres no shortage of replacements. You could look at the club games, players dotted around who might make it if given the chance. Players are funny, a player who does the job without being spectacular at club level, might also do the job at county. An outstanding club player, mightnt hit a ball in an oireachteas game.

posted 08 August 2003 10:41 PM         

There exists a manager, who was once a player, but he was retired (prematurely in his opinion), by the gaffer of that time. The gaffer of that time has some offspring, 2 who have been managed by the manager. In controversial circumstances 1 (Player 1)never got to be managed by the manager, amid claims that it dates back to when the gaffer retired the manager when he was still a player. One of the two (Player 2) was managed by the manager when he was in his first term of office, in a different managership, and was on the bench despite being captain the previous year. Upon being sprung from the bench, he proceeded to cause havoc in a spirited attempt by the team to snatch victory. Many believe that had another manager been in charge that player who was captain the previous year would have started, and the team would have won. All speculation and hindsight talk of course, all 2003 talk, didnt hear any of this going on in 1999. And then there is the other player (Player 3), on a good day unparalleled by his rivals, but has reportedly not seen eye to eye with the manager and has also reportedly not been impressed that Player 1 was not involved. Does it all link back to when the gaffer "retired" the player (now manager).

One wonders what would happen were Player 2 to continue his excellent club form, would he get a callup by the manager who left him on the line. Was Player 2 just not good enough at the time he was left on the line or did it link back. Was Player 1 good enough to be involved, he has also being enjoying good club form, one wonders would he get a callup.

Interesting times ahead. If only the Gaffer hadnt prematurely retired the Manager.

What happens if either of the three players are on squad but arent enjoying the best of form, would a demotion be attributed to when the Gaffer retired the Manager (then player) or would it be accepted graciously with a willingness to work harder and regain the place.

posted 09 August 2003 02:54 PM         

It's like one of those simultaneous equation thingys...if John had twice as many apples as Mike, who had one less than Joe, who gave one of his to ....

Well done Gunther , a notable effort , and close to the bone for some people.I wouldn't have expacted it from you given the sh!te you usually post
however no comment on the apparent lack of firness of the panal , or the assumption ( mother of all...) that U21 players are automatically good enough for senoir.

posted 09 August 2003 11:01 PM         

What I have to say is that Jack Foley would probably have been under pressure for his place regardless of who was in charge. Having come in as a 19 year old in 1996, and been touted as being better than Mark at that time, it just didnt work out. He had played for Limerick in about 5 different positions without ever making one his own. However even if Cregan had stayed on, there was another crop of young sucessful players coming through and hard decisions were going to have to be made. Paudie O'Dwyer and Maurice O'Brien were always going to make the cut, their level of performance at under 21 level would have far outweighed what Foley would have produced even at club level and would be fresh in the memory. However he may feel hard done by at the inclusion of thre likes of Raymond Hayes and Michael Clifford ahead of him. Still Though Cregan had him for 5 years and only started him in three championship games and didnt even bring him on in the 2002 championship.

What matters most is that everything is put behind them. If a stand isnt made by the management, showing who's boss we are heading for another year of turmoil. The same consistency in disciplining players should apply to all. One bad apple will rot the box.

This year was a learning process for the management, what worked at under 21 level didnt work at senior and they realise that now. However this is not taken from theor achievements at under 21 level. Look at the players they got the best out of, Brian Carroll wouldnt get near the Kilmallock No. 3 shirt, Likewise Eugene Mulcahy with Knockainey both wing backs for their clubs, Micky Cahill has played very little hurling at corner back, Paul O'Grady was gone a year after he left them. They got every ounce out of better players like the Tobins, David Stapleton, Mark O'Riordan, they made everybody part of a winning combination. Look at Raymond Hayes in last years Munster Final Replay and in this years game vs Waterford.

posted 10 August 2003 01:39 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by rooter:
Well done Gunther , a notable effort , and close to the bone for some people.I wouldn't have expacted it from you given the sh!te you usually post

---

No-one ever accused Gunther of not knowing his hurling, only of being a narky boll0cks.

posted 11 August 2003 11:45 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
This thread is probably producing the best and most opinionated views on Limerick Hurling ever. Dont buy the papers anymore, read this thread, every angle of every incident is covered.

What I have to say is that Jack Foley would probably have been under pressure for his place regardless of who was in charge. Having come in as a 19 year old in 1996, and been touted as being better than Mark at that time, it just didnt work out. He had played for Limerick in about 5 different positions without ever making one his own. However even if Cregan had stayed on, there was another crop of young sucessful players coming through and hard decisions were going to have to be made. Paudie O'Dwyer and Maurice O'Brien were always going to make the cut, their level of performance at under 21 level would have far outweighed what Foley would have produced even at club level and would be fresh in the memory. However he may feel hard done by at the inclusion of thre likes of Raymond Hayes and Michael Clifford ahead of him. Still Though Cregan had him for 5 years and only started him in three championship games and didnt even bring him on in the 2002 championship.

What matters most is that everything is put behind them. If a stand isnt made by the management, showing who's boss we are heading for another year of turmoil. The same consistency in disciplining players should apply to all. One bad apple will rot the box.

This year was a learning process for the management, what worked at under 21 level didnt work at senior and they realise that now. However this is not taken from theor achievements at under 21 level. Look at the players they got the best out of, Brian Carroll wouldnt get near the Kilmallock No. 3 shirt, Likewise Eugene Mulcahy with Knockainey both wing backs for their clubs, Micky Cahill has played very little hurling at corner back, Paul O'Grady was gone a year after he left them. They got every ounce out of better players like the Tobins, David Stapleton, Mark O'Riordan, they made everybody part of a winning combination. Look at Raymond Hayes in last years Munster Final Replay and in this years game vs Waterford.

I can only assume that the players got away with having the few pints at under 21 level, and missing the odd training session, but the spirit in the camp carried them through games. Another thing is that the team were under the cosh in so many games its unreal but they always seemed to make the most of their scoring chances when they got them, and always had enough scores built up from early in a game to carry them through to the final whistle when they ran out of steam. These things just dont happen at senior level.

---

posted 13 August 2003 05:01 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tbilisi:
No-one ever accused Gunther of not knowing his hurling, only of being a narky boll0cks.

It is indeed an impressive post, like one or two others on this thread, and very informative for someone like myself who wouldn't know very much about the ins and outs of Limerick hurling.

---

TBILISI

IMAGINE GUNTHER AS A BOSS

posted 13 August 2003 11:18 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by maiguesider:

IMAGINE GUNTHER AS A BOSS

---