posted 22 January 2004 06:25 PM         

Who would you remove from the panel that hasnt already been removed. It is fair to assume that if PJ wont tolerate dual players, then he wont tolerate excessive drinkers. You hear all these stories about drinking in Birr, but i'd say thats only a media smokescreen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Comandante jr:
Its true that with Dave Mahedy envolved the players will be conditioned for championship huling.The biggest problem we have now is that when the dual players choose football,everbody thinks that what is left behind is 101% commited hurlers.These committed hurlers had multiple chances last year and put away some amount of sauce in between games also.Its o.k. to say everbody on the hurling panel is only focusing on hurling,but i believe that if somebody does not have the will to win and is not ready to give up everthing else in their personal life for a championship title, then it just wont happen.No Mahedy,No PJ, No 30,000 LK Supporters will change them.You either have it in you or you dont.

---

posted 22 January 2004 06:45 PM         

Criticism of the players involved is also unfair.They are amateur players breaking their backs for up to 9 months in the year, giving us a lot of enjoyment without much discernable reward.

The whole situation is,unfortunately, damaging to Limerick hurling.Still no-one,after this escapade, expects us to get near Cork.The same as it was in 2001.We wont win the All-Ireland but with expectations at such a low ebb we could spring a surprise or two.

On the flip side the footballers look to have a promising campaign ahead.Liam Kearns has worked wonders and maybe this decision is something he deserves.However to say that we are genuine All Ireland contenders is a bit over the top.A munster title and we'd be delighted.Knowing Limerick Gaa though either Waterford or Tipp will beat us. . . . . .

posted 22 January 2004 07:27 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by No 22:
El Comandante jr,

You hear all these stories about drinking in Birr, but i'd say thats only a media smokescreen.

---

posted 22 January 2004 10:06 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Comandante jr:

I'd just be happy with one AI.

---

posted 22 January 2004 10:09 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by LimerickNomad:
Wouldn't we all down in LK! This year will be my 25th in search
of the elusive Liam... It's hard not to despair sometimes though.

---

Jaysus nomad you are making me seem old

Mussay i'm getting sick of the whole county thing at this stage

posted 23 January 2004 09:18 AM         

Do you mean in terms of Eoin Foley and POD being dropped? Well, they were dropped for a reason. Will they be back after this news? I would hope so. They're potentially better hurlers than the six dual players anyway. But no good having them back unless the attitude is right.

posted 23 January 2004 11:08 AM         

I am disappointed that all 6 choose Football,and I hope they did it for the right reasons...not to "put manners" on Pajoe,who was perfectly entitled to ask for full commitment from his players.

Couple of points.

-Pajoe has lost 3 players from his panel not 6....Conor Fitz,Begley,and Keane were not included..though Fitz and Begley would almost certainly have been included,there was no such guarantee for Keane.

-Did the County Board reiterate their position on dual players to Pajoe before they offered him the job?
If not,this was a big mistake given the trouble it has caused down the years.
If Pajoe said he would not tolerate dual players,why was he offered the job given Co Board policy on dual players?

I think the Co Board avoided the issue hoping it would go away...just like the Cregan fiasco in 2002.

Fair play to Pajoe for forcing the issue..last year we had to play Offaly only 4 days after the Munster Football final.
It's entirely possible that the same scenario will arise this year...No,it simply cant be done.

Pajoe is not a fool..he must have foreseen that 4 or 5 players would choose Football,although Begley's decision is a shock.

He must believe there is enough talent there to make up their loss..otherwise he would surely not have gambled on them making a choice.

The fact that he,Nash and Quigley have reiterated their stance on dual players in a Statement yesterday would seem to confirm this.

Pajoe was never going to win a loyalty battle with Liam Kearns...there is a fierce bond built up between Kearns and his players over the last 4 years.

However,if the players choose Football over hurling,to "put maaners" on Pajoe,rather that it being their preferred sport, I think they have made a mistake.

This is a double edge sword for Kearns...he must now deliver a Munster title,or the season will be seen as a failure.

Further,if as seems likely,Keane,O'Brien,and Begley are left on the bench,they will not thank him having "sacrificed" their hurling careers to play Football.

Pajoe,is under less pressure..a good show v Cork,maybe 1 or 2 wins in the qualifiers,will be deemed a good season.

So,who will we miss?

1..Brian Begley

The biggest loss by far,and I simply cant understand why he has chosen Football.
In 2001 he dropped Football altogether when under no pressure to do so..so why has he chosen Football?

His motives are dubious and I think he has made a huge mistake..he is a far better hurler,was almost guaranteed to make the team,and will very probably not make the Football team...where will that leave him?

He is a huge loss because of his sheer size and strength..particularly when you have lightweights like AOS,Kirby and Sheehan in the Forwards.

He was a massive loss in the Offaly game last year..people tend to forget this during the Dave Keane witchhunt.

Arrigle has a theory that Begs did not help the cause because the ball into the forwards was one dimensional..eg MArk Foley's delivery...it's a fair point.

But Begley was improving every year...his switch to Centre Forward v Waterford this year turned the game for us.

A huge loss..and I bet Diarmuid O'Sullivan is pleased.

Conventinal Football wisdom is that the best way to beat the "blanket defence",is by pumping ball into a big Full Forward at the edge of the square...maybe this is the role that Kearns has in mind for him?

2..Conor Fitzgerald

Second biggest loss..but was always going to be loyal to Kearns.
Is a much better hurler,and I always had the impression from watching him from U14 upwards that it is his No 1 game..and i'm sure it still is..

An excellent finisher,superb temperament...will probably not hurl for Limerick again while Pajoe is in charge..an awful pity.

3..Stephen Lucey

Dont think he will be as big a loss as people make out..has not really performed at Senior level in the Championship since his nightmare debut in 2000.

I always had Lucey down as an ideal physical foil to a more skilled midfield partner...ala Tim Crowley or Pat Hartnett to John Fenton or Tom Cashman.
While he achieved this at U21 level,he is physichally imposing and very aggressive,he did not have the same affect at Senior level..

Ny next hope for him would that he filled one of the troubled Central positions at 3,6 or 11,where his lack of genuine hurling skill would not be as obvious as when exposed to a midfield role...played brilliantly on Henry Shefflin in the NHL Semi at Centre Back in 2002.

Lucey would only be a loss if he decided to concentrate on hurling only..and this is never going to happen.

A superb Footballer,and a leader in Liam Kearn's team..he has made the right choice.

4...Mark Keane

Far better hurler than Footballer.Saw him play Football v Kerry in Tralee in 2002..and he didn't kick a ball all day...though he has been prolific in local championship this year.

His motives are also dubious.

Has never,and will probably never achieve his full potential as a hurler.

Best natural finisher in Limerick by a mile..his temprament for Senior C'Ship hurling has been questioned..and frankly,he has not done it at Senior C'Ship level

Ny hope was that that Pajoe the motivator would get the best out of him,and that Declan Nash/Joe McKenna would also be a positive influence.

In fairness...AOS,Pat Kirby,Donnchadh Sheehan,and Donie Ryan are better bets than him on recent form..but I just feel the new Managenment team would have helped him.

Mark has made a poor decision..and will spend the Summer warming the Footballer's bench.

5...Mike O'Brien

Has played one good Championship game in 4 years..and has achieved nothing since.

Plenty of players of equal ability in Limerick,and will be no signigicant loss.

6...Mark O'Riordan.

Surprised he even made the 50 to be honest.

A superb Footballer who made the right choice.

Pajoe must find a target man to replace Begley,and find a reliable freetaker.(I suggest Niall Moran).

He must try and get Eoin Foley and O'Dwyer back in the fold..

He will have 30 players 100% committed to the cause,rather than having a Football match at the back of their minds..this will make us harder to beat,at least,following last year's disaster.

All is not lost..Cork will be the hottest of favourites on May 31...bit like 94,we may send them home to "think again".

Liam Kearns will not have a better chance to win a Munser title..and I sincerely hope he does.

He and Billy and the panel of players have given us great days over the last 3 years,while the hurlers have made a show of us.

Finally..I would appeal to genuine Limerick supporters to get behing BOTH teams this year..dont let this incident make you choose one team or the other...these amateur players have made their choice,and we now have to get on with it..there is plenty of talent on both sides to make this a memorable season for us.

I wish Liam and Pajoe all the best for the coming year,and look forward to some cracking games at the magnificent Gaelic Grounds over the next few months.

Limerick Forever.

posted 23 January 2004 12:03 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by GUNTHER:

Like all Limerick Hurling supporters,I was gutted when I heard this news.
However...it had to happen...Dual players cannot work in this day and age..simple as that.

I am disappointed that all 6 choose Football,and I hope they did it for the right reasons...not to "put manners" on Pajoe,who was perfectly entitled to ask for full commitment from his players.

Couple of points.

-Pajoe has lost 3 players from his panel not 6....Conor Fitz,Begley,and Keane were not included..though Fitz and Begley would almost certainly have been included,there was no such guarantee for Keane.

-Did the County Board reiterate their position on dual players to Pajoe before they offered him the job?
If not,this was a big mistake given the trouble it has caused down the years.
If Pajoe said he would not tolerate dual players,why was he offered the job given Co Board policy on dual players?

I think the Co Board avoided the issue hoping it would go away...just like the Cregan fiasco in 2002.

Fair play to Pajoe for forcing the issue..last year we had to play Offaly only 4 days after the Munster Football final.
It's entirely possible that the same scenario will arise this year...No,it simply cant be done.

Pajoe is not a fool..he must have foreseen that 4 or 5 players would choose Football,although Begley's decision is a shock.

He must believe there is enough talent there to make up their loss..otherwise he would surely not have gambled on them making a choice.

The fact that he,Nash and Quigley have reiterated their stance on dual players in a Statement yesterday would seem to confirm this.

Pajoe was never going to win a loyalty battle with Liam Kearns...there is a fierce bond built up between Kearns and his players over the last 4 years.

However,if the players choose Football over hurling,to "put maaners" on Pajoe,rather that it being their preferred sport, I think they have made a mistake.

This is a double edge sword for Kearns...he must now deliver a Munster title,or the season will be seen as a failure.

Further,if as seems likely,Keane,O'Brien,and Begley are left on the bench,they will not thank him having "sacrificed" their hurling careers to play Football.

Pajoe,is under less pressure..a good show v Cork,maybe 1 or 2 wins in the qualifiers,will be deemed a good season.

So,who will we miss?

1..Brian Begley

The biggest loss by far,and I simply cant understand why he has chosen Football.
In 2001 he dropped Football altogether when under no pressure to do so..so why has he chosen Football?

His motives are dubious and I think he has made a huge mistake..he is a far better hurler,was almost guaranteed to make the team,and will very probably not make the Football team...where will that leave him?

He is a huge loss because of his sheer size and strength..particularly when you have lightweights like AOS,Kirby and Sheehan in the Forwards.

He was a massive loss in the Offaly game last year..people tend to forget this during the Dave Keane witchhunt.

Arrigle has a theory that Begs did not help the cause because the ball into the forwards was one dimensional..eg MArk Foley's delivery...it's a fair point.

But Begley was improving every year...his switch to Centre Forward v Waterford this year turned the game for us.

A huge loss..and I bet Diarmuid O'Sullivan is pleased.

Conventinal Football wisdom is that the best way to beat the "blanket defence",is by pumping ball into a big Full Forward at the edge of the square...maybe this is the role that Kearns has in mind for him?

2..Conor Fitzgerald

Second biggest loss..but was always going to be loyal to Kearns.
Is a much better hurler,and I always had the impression from watching him from U14 upwards that it is his No 1 game..and i'm sure it still is..

An excellent finisher,superb temperament...will probably not hurl for Limerick again while Pajoe is in charge..an awful pity.

3..Stephen Lucey

Dont think he will be as big a loss as people make out..has not really performed at Senior level in the Championship since his nightmare debut in 2000.

I always had Lucey down as an ideal physical foil to a more skilled midfield partner...ala Tim Crowley or Pat Hartnett to John Fenton or Tom Cashman.
While he achieved this at U21 level,he is physichally imposing and very aggressive,he did not have the same affect at Senior level..

Ny next hope for him would that he filled one of the troubled Central positions at 3,6 or 11,where his lack of genuine hurling skill would not be as obvious as when exposed to a midfield role...played brilliantly on Henry Shefflin in the NHL Semi at Centre Back in 2002.

Lucey would only be a loss if he decided to concentrate on hurling only..and this is never going to happen.

A superb Footballer,and a leader in Liam Kearn's team..he has made the right choice.

4...Mark Keane

Far better hurler than Footballer.Saw him play Football v Kerry in Tralee in 2002..and he didn't kick a ball all day...though he has been prolific in local championship this year.

His motives are also dubious.

Has never,and will probably never achieve his full potential as a hurler.

Best natural finisher in Limerick by a mile..his temprament for Senior C'Ship hurling has been questioned..and frankly,he has not done it at Senior C'Ship level

Ny hope was that that Pajoe the motivator would get the best out of him,and that Declan Nash/Joe McKenna would also be a positive influence.

In fairness...AOS,Pat Kirby,Donnchadh Sheehan,and Donie Ryan are better bets than him on recent form..but I just feel the new Managenment team would have helped him.

Mark has made a poor decision..and will spend the Summer warming the Footballer's bench.

5...Mike O'Brien

Has played one good Championship game in 4 years..and has achieved nothing since.

Plenty of players of equal ability in Limerick,and will be no signigicant loss.

6...Mark O'Riordan.

Surprised he even made the 50 to be honest.

A superb Footballer who made the right choice.

Pajoe must find a target man to replace Begley,and find a reliable freetaker.(I suggest Niall Moran).

He must try and get Eoin Foley and O'Dwyer back in the fold..

He will have 30 players 100% committed to the cause,rather than having a Football match at the back of their minds..this will make us harder to beat,at least,following last year's disaster.

All is not lost..Cork will be the hottest of favourites on May 31...bit like 94,we may send them home to "think again".

Liam Kearns will not have a better chance to win a Munser title..and I sincerely hope he does.

He and Billy and the panel of players have given us great days over the last 3 years,while the hurlers have made a show of us.

Finally..I would appeal to genuine Limerick supporters to get behing BOTH teams this year..dont let this incident make you choose one team or the other...these amateur players have made their choice,and we now have to get on with it..there is plenty of talent on both sides to make this a memorable season for us.

I wish Liam and Pajoe all the best for the coming year,and look forward to some cracking games at the magnificent Gaelic Grounds over the next few months.

Limerick Forever.

---

posted 23 January 2004 12:04 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faugh:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LimerickNomad:
[b]According to Martin Kiely on the wireless tonight, all six
players have decided to play the big ball game this year.
Lucey, Keane, Begley, O'Brien, Conor Fitz and one other. They
made their decision known to Damian and Declan tonight, according
to Kiely.

Thoughts?

---

[/B][/QUOTE]

And this from a man who accused me of being a hurler on the ditch. I haven'read all the posts on this one yet. My opinion is that whatever about the rest Begley is the single biggest casualty as he is probably the most underated full forward in the country. In 2001 by concentrating on hurling he had a fine year.
Is this good or bad? Time will tell. If we want to take a positive aspect out of it then let it be this. Both football and hurling managers will now have a 2 dedicated panels with no more horsesh1t going on. Time will tell. My biggest fear is now that Limerick will end up with two very average teams in both hurling and football. This was the position that Laoise were in 10-15 years ago until it looks like they decided to concentrate on football. If Limerick are not careful any hope we have of becoming a force in hurling is going to be put in huge jepordy.
Another quote I said last year was that the success of the footballers could be the nail in the coffin of the footballers. I was laughed at. Not many laughing this morning I suspect

posted 23 January 2004 01:30 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by GUNTHER:

Like all Limerick Hurling supporters,I was gutted when I heard this news.
However...it had to happen...Dual players cannot work in this day and age..simple as that.

I am disappointed that all 6 choose Football,and I hope they did it for the right reasons...not to "put manners" on Pajoe,who was perfectly entitled to ask for full commitment from his players.

Couple of points.

-Pajoe has lost 3 players from his panel not 6....Conor Fitz,Begley,and Keane were not included..though Fitz and Begley would almost certainly have been included,there was no such guarantee for Keane.

-Did the County Board reiterate their position on dual players to Pajoe before they offered him the job?
If not,this was a big mistake given the trouble it has caused down the years.
If Pajoe said he would not tolerate dual players,why was he offered the job given Co Board policy on dual players?

I think the Co Board avoided the issue hoping it would go away...just like the Cregan fiasco in 2002.

Fair play to Pajoe for forcing the issue..last year we had to play Offaly only 4 days after the Munster Football final.
It's entirely possible that the same scenario will arise this year...No,it simply cant be done.

Pajoe is not a fool..he must have foreseen that 4 or 5 players would choose Football,although Begley's decision is a shock.

He must believe there is enough talent there to make up their loss..otherwise he would surely not have gambled on them making a choice.

The fact that he,Nash and Quigley have reiterated their stance on dual players in a Statement yesterday would seem to confirm this.

Pajoe was never going to win a loyalty battle with Liam Kearns...there is a fierce bond built up between Kearns and his players over the last 4 years.

However,if the players choose Football over hurling,to "put maaners" on Pajoe,rather that it being their preferred sport, I think they have made a mistake.

This is a double edge sword for Kearns...he must now deliver a Munster title,or the season will be seen as a failure.

Further,if as seems likely,Keane,O'Brien,and Begley are left on the bench,they will not thank him having "sacrificed" their hurling careers to play Football.

Pajoe,is under less pressure..a good show v Cork,maybe 1 or 2 wins in the qualifiers,will be deemed a good season.

So,who will we miss?

1..Brian Begley

The biggest loss by far,and I simply cant understand why he has chosen Football.
In 2001 he dropped Football altogether when under no pressure to do so..so why has he chosen Football?

His motives are dubious and I think he has made a huge mistake..he is a far better hurler,was almost guaranteed to make the team,and will very probably not make the Football team...where will that leave him?

He is a huge loss because of his sheer size and strength..particularly when you have lightweights like AOS,Kirby and Sheehan in the Forwards.

He was a massive loss in the Offaly game last year..people tend to forget this during the Dave Keane witchhunt.

Arrigle has a theory that Begs did not help the cause because the ball into the forwards was one dimensional..eg MArk Foley's delivery...it's a fair point.

But Begley was improving every year...his switch to Centre Forward v Waterford this year turned the game for us.

A huge loss..and I bet Diarmuid O'Sullivan is pleased.

Conventinal Football wisdom is that the best way to beat the "blanket defence",is by pumping ball into a big Full Forward at the edge of the square...maybe this is the role that Kearns has in mind for him?

2..Conor Fitzgerald

Second biggest loss..but was always going to be loyal to Kearns.
Is a much better hurler,and I always had the impression from watching him from U14 upwards that it is his No 1 game..and i'm sure it still is..

An excellent finisher,superb temperament...will probably not hurl for Limerick again while Pajoe is in charge..an awful pity.

3..Stephen Lucey

Dont think he will be as big a loss as people make out..has not really performed at Senior level in the Championship since his nightmare debut in 2000.

I always had Lucey down as an ideal physical foil to a more skilled midfield partner...ala Tim Crowley or Pat Hartnett to John Fenton or Tom Cashman.
While he achieved this at U21 level,he is physichally imposing and very aggressive,he did not have the same affect at Senior level..

Ny next hope for him would that he filled one of the troubled Central positions at 3,6 or 11,where his lack of genuine hurling skill would not be as obvious as when exposed to a midfield role...played brilliantly on Henry Shefflin in the NHL Semi at Centre Back in 2002.

Lucey would only be a loss if he decided to concentrate on hurling only..and this is never going to happen.

A superb Footballer,and a leader in Liam Kearn's team..he has made the right choice.

4...Mark Keane

Far better hurler than Footballer.Saw him play Football v Kerry in Tralee in 2002..and he didn't kick a ball all day...though he has been prolific in local championship this year.

His motives are also dubious.

Has never,and will probably never achieve his full potential as a hurler.

Best natural finisher in Limerick by a mile..his temprament for Senior C'Ship hurling has been questioned..and frankly,he has not done it at Senior C'Ship level

Ny hope was that that Pajoe the motivator would get the best out of him,and that Declan Nash/Joe McKenna would also be a positive influence.

In fairness...AOS,Pat Kirby,Donnchadh Sheehan,and Donie Ryan are better bets than him on recent form..but I just feel the new Managenment team would have helped him.

Mark has made a poor decision..and will spend the Summer warming the Footballer's bench.

5...Mike O'Brien

Has played one good Championship game in 4 years..and has achieved nothing since.

Plenty of players of equal ability in Limerick,and will be no signigicant loss.

6...Mark O'Riordan.

Surprised he even made the 50 to be honest.

A superb Footballer who made the right choice.

Pajoe must find a target man to replace Begley,and find a reliable freetaker.(I suggest Niall Moran).

He must try and get Eoin Foley and O'Dwyer back in the fold..

He will have 30 players 100% committed to the cause,rather than having a Football match at the back of their minds..this will make us harder to beat,at least,following last year's disaster.

All is not lost..Cork will be the hottest of favourites on May 31...bit like 94,we may send them home to "think again".

Liam Kearns will not have a better chance to win a Munser title..and I sincerely hope he does.

He and Billy and the panel of players have given us great days over the last 3 years,while the hurlers have made a show of us.

Finally..I would appeal to genuine Limerick supporters to get behing BOTH teams this year..dont let this incident make you choose one team or the other...these amateur players have made their choice,and we now have to get on with it..there is plenty of talent on both sides to make this a memorable season for us.

I wish Liam and Pajoe all the best for the coming year,and look forward to some cracking games at the magnificent Gaelic Grounds over the next few months.

Limerick Forever.

---

I'm sure the only two Pajo will miss are Conor and Brian. Mark O Riordan may well have done a job but we will never know now. Stephen Lucey is not good enough for championship hurling full stop - an average club hurler and not at all skillful or fast enough when the summer comes. MOB and Mark Keane are no loss, both just not good enough for this level.
I think again that many people are overestimating the value of these players and their potential loss to the hurlers. I read today there was a standing ovation in the dressing room when Pajo announced that they were all going to play football, which tells you straight away that their dual status and their absence from many hurling training sessions last year was a bone of contention with the other panel members.
You see dual status is totally different from a hurling perspective than it is from a football perspective. If a guy is fit, he can do with kicking football once a week and be able for championship football. Hurling is a way more skilled and requires constant practice at pace. Too many of the footballers are poor technical hurlers and by dividing their time, they were lessening their impact. Fine for football but catastrophic for hurling.
Brendan Cummins is a hurling goalkeeper and he feels he cannot juggle the two. Our 6 are out field players and they feel they can ?? Are these guys supermen ??
I suggest ye have a look at Donal Keenan's article in Ireland on Sunday last week in relation to dual players lads !!
I think it's a pity that we lost some of the players to hurling and I'd bet that some of them are now regretting their decision. You see Lucey called a meeting of the dual players and encouraged them all to stick together in the belief that Pajo would back down and agree to compromise on the issue. Now that he hasn't they are left with egg on their face.
But look on the bright side, at least the hurlers are now going to be united for the year as they have been told in no uncertain way what is actually thought of their prospects in 2004.
Expect them to be there standing when the final bell rings !!

posted 23 January 2004 04:28 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faugh:

You see Lucey called a meeting of the dual players and encouraged
them all to stick together in the belief that Pajo would back
down and agree to compromise on the issue. Now that he hasn't
they are left with egg on their face.

---

Faugh,

Are you saying that Lucey was able to pursuade both Fitzie and
Begley from playing hurling in the belief that the dual status
would continue? The double bluff didn't work then. Did he/they
not think that Pad Joe was being serious in his request for one or
the other?

What's really stopping either of them from changing their mind in
a month's time, especially Begley when he sits down and thinks
about it?

posted 23 January 2004 05:01 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by LimerickNomad:
Faugh,

Are you saying that Lucey was able to pursuade both Fitzie and
Begley from playing hurling in the belief that the dual status
would continue? The double bluff didn't work then. Did he/they
not think that Pad Joe was being serious in his request for one or
the other?

What's really stopping either of them from changing their mind in
a month's time, especially Begley when he sits down and thinks
about it?

Interesting...

---

The book is closed, there will be no turning back for anyone. I think Lucey and Co expected the County Board to put pressure on Pajo just like they did on Cregan two years ago, but the reality is that the Board knew Pajo's stance on dual players all along.
They had to play the line they played so as not to be seen to be pro or anti hurling or football. Instead they sat on the fence as it was a no win situation, and left the decision up to the players. The players chose football and no one can say they were pressurised into doing so.
I wish the players well in their football exploits. I am not anti football but definately pro hurling and I reckon this really cound be the making of us this year.
Shocks full forward, Seanie No 11, and a panel who are fully committed to the ancient game. But we will have to start moving the ball on the ground from the half forward line into Shocks. I would reckon out of three low balls he will get two scores off O Sullivan come the championship. Turn Diarmuid Tttuuuuuurrrrrrrnnnnnn !!!!!!!!!!
Luimneach Abu

posted 23 January 2004 05:24 PM         

I agree re Begleys loss to the hurlers. Its huge. He had the measure of the Rock in recent times and could act as a target man for puck outs on the forty as well. He may be limited as a footballer but has his values there as well. For instance Seamus Moynihan finds it difficult to handle big full forwards e.g Ronan Clarke, Colin Corkery. Even big men who were poor footballers have caused him awkard moments. Moynihan would not fancy him facing him in a Munster final in Gaelic Grounds next July. Now that he is 100% with the football Begley will improve as well.

Conor Fitz's freetaking skills a loss but O'Grady is an option here?

posted 23 January 2004 06:08 PM         

I know I am repeating myself but the way the hurlers have carried in recent times its difficult to blame them for the choice they have made. [/B][/QUOTE]

No one is blaming them but it is great to finally bring this dual player issue which has been dragging on for the last few years to a close. And the bottom line is that the hurlers are far closer to success than many people would lead us to believe. For instance with things at an all time low last year, we nearly put Waterford to the sword. This year we have better management, a better physical trainer, more committed players and now some serious motivation too. Even now heading towards the end of January, I am happier with the way things are shaping up than I have been in a while.
I think this could be the start of something............

posted 23 January 2004 08:01 PM         

Am I mistaken here or have you a hidden agenda against Stephen Lucey.

You have made numerous negative references to his hurling ability in recent weeks, and also called him a bluffer. Did he steal your girlfriend recently or something?

He made 3 championship starts for Limerick between 1999 and 2003, there isnt really much grounds there for suggesting that he isnt a championship hurler.

posted 23 January 2004 09:18 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by No 22:
Faugh,

Am I mistaken here or have you a hidden agenda against Stephen Lucey.

You have made numerous negative references to his hurling ability in recent weeks, and also called him a bluffer. Did he steal your girlfriend recently or something?

He made 3 championship starts for Limerick between 1999 and 2003, there isnt really much grounds there for suggesting that he isnt a championship hurler.

Watch him Inspire UCD in this years Fitzgibbon Cup

---

Jeez I have no problem at all with Stephen, he was an excellent underage hurler and a real leader in the first two of our U 21 All Ireland wins. If he concentrated then on hurling alone he may well have had something to offer, but his hurling career has taken a nose dive over the last few years. His skill levels haven't improved and out of those three senior championship starts he was taken off in two and should have been taken off v Tipp in 2002 when N Morris cleaned him out.
He is though an outstanding footballer, the real heart of the Limerick team. I hope he leads them to Munster honours this year

posted 23 January 2004 10:49 PM         

Sam him play against Down for UCD last weekend - scored 2 points and is getting back to his best. What Stephen Lucey brings to a team (hurling/football) is agression, passion, determination and leadership - something the senior hurlers have been missing for the last 3 years.

I don't blame the dual players they have seen and put up with a lot of s**t in the last few years. (Probably the one reason that made this decision easy for them)

...........................what ever is said here questioning these players committment to Limerick hurling is a terrible disservice.

Lucey for example has been travelling from Dublin twice sometimes 4 times a week for the last 2 years for Limerick GAA. This while he is training to become a doctor - hats off to him and the other 5.

P.S. It would not have come to this if the county board had asked Padjo his opinion when he was been interview for the job. Why did he chose these players on the original squad without asking them would they be prepared to give up football.

posted 24 January 2004 12:35 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liam:
Stephen Lucey played 3 games of hurling last year through injury! Probably not a good yardstick to judge him by.

Sam him play against Down for UCD last weekend - scored 2 points and is getting back to his best. What Stephen Lucey brings to a team (hurling/football) is agression, passion, determination and leadership - something the senior hurlers have been missing for the last 3 years.

I don't blame the dual players they have seen and put up with a lot of s**t in the last few years. (Probably the one reason that made this decision easy for them)

...........................what ever is said here questioning these players committment to Limerick hurling is a terrible disservice.

Lucey for example has been travelling from Dublin twice sometimes 4 times a week for the last 2 years for Limerick GAA. This while he is training to become a doctor - hats off to him and the other 5.

P.S. It would not have come to this if the county board had asked Padjo his opinion when he was been interview for the job. Why did he chose these players on the original squad without asking them would they be prepared to give up football.

Guys/gals - understand this..........this mess is not the fault of any of the 6 players! All they want to do is play GAA something they enjoy - give them a break!

---

Well if Stephen is travelling from Dublin that often over the last few years, it is not to Limerick hurling training. His commitment to hurling has not been what it should have been over the last few years which is understandable given his personal circumstances. But certainly I can state that he hasn't been to hurling training on average more than one night a week over the last few years. In talking to one of the panel members yesterday he said that the newcomers to the LSH panel had trained more since the start of January than Stephen did over the last two years.
PS comparing fitzgibbon to championship hurling is a bit of a joke. A guy could be a good Fitz player but not related to a championship hurler. Winter hurling (Fitz and league) are completely different to the white heat of Munster championship !!!!

posted 25 January 2004 07:21 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faugh:

Well if Stephen is travelling from Dublin that often over the last few years, it is not to Limerick hurling training. His commitment to hurling has not been what it should have been over the last few years which is understandable given his personal circumstances. But certainly I can state that he hasn't been to hurling training on average more than one night a week over the last few years. In talking to one of the panel members yesterday he said that the newcomers to the LSH panel had trained more since the start of January than Stephen did over the last two years.
PS comparing fitzgibbon to championship hurling is a bit of a joke. A guy could be a good Fitz player but not related to a championship hurler. Winter hurling (Fitz and league) are completely different to the white heat of Munster championship !!!!

---

Some say Stephen would go through a brick wall in training, others agree, but would go further and say that getting him to training in the first place is the problem i.e, he's always somewhere else, at another game or another training session. If he was Limerick based and playing for all these teams, he'd find it difficult, being Dublin based makes it impossible. Apparently on the day 2002 when he put the shackles on Henry Shefflin in the league semi final, the number of times he had been with the squad (training + matches) was still in single figures. It probably sums up the dual player scenario really, fine for the football manager, dual players could play well without training, but probably not good enough to excel in championship hurling.

My opinions of the county board are well documented. Their role is to be strong enough to intervene and prevent such situations from arising, yet be distant enough to mind their own business where all other team affairs are concerned. Too often in the past county boards have been the opposite and in this case, "burying heads in the sand" is an appropriate description.

posted 25 January 2004 09:13 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
Some say Stephen would go through a brick wall in training, others agree, but would go further and say that getting him to training in the first place is the problem i.e, he's always somewhere else, at another game or another training session. If he was Limerick based and playing for all these teams, he'd find it difficult, being Dublin based makes it impossible. Apparently on the day 2002 when he put the shackles on Henry Shefflin in the league semi final, the number of times he had been with the squad (training + matches) was still in single figures. It probably sums up the dual player scenario really, fine for the football manager, dual players could play well without training, but probably not good enough to excel in championship hurling.

My opinions of the county board are well documented. Their role is to be strong enough to intervene and prevent such situations from arising, yet be distant enough to mind their own business where all other team affairs are concerned. Too often in the past county boards have been the opposite and in this case, "burying heads in the sand" is an appropriate description.

It seems that Liam Kearns has had a press conference today detailing that he made several attempts to meet Pajo Whelehan, and Whelehan was unwilling to meet. Kearns got the county board to try and arrange a meeting, but nothing could be sorted. Kearns was willing to go so far as to allow the 6 miss most of the training sessions with the footballers in order to have them available. It seems then that the 6 boys were then removed from the Hurling panel and they never got a choice in the matter and are very disappointed at the way it has turned out.

---

I can't see what a meeting between Pajo and Liam K would achieve. The bottom line is that the players were told the decision would rest with them as to whatever sport they wanted to play. Threatening to play football only and organising a meeting behind Pajo's back only served to make the hurling management's mind up on the issue.
The bottom line is that the day of the dual player at senior level is gone if both teams are serious about their business. It's not so bad from a football view point but from a hurling point of view it is a hindrance.
In effect what the "Limerick Six" are saying is that all other high profile dual Counties with dual player "problems" are also incorrect with the line they are taking. You just can't have the tail wagging the dog !!!!

posted 25 January 2004 10:14 PM         

Pad Joe laid his cards out on the table too, albeit much more
bluntly that Liam tried to it seems. He'll work with what he
has, for better or worse.

What could the county board have done in any case? Meddle and
they're ion the wrong, don't meddle and they're still in the
wrong. No win for any side?

Let's just go about our business from here on out, trying to stay
out of the newspapers for a few weeks, please! On today's
football performance, there's a lot of work to be done. A few
positives today: Lucey is an excellent centre back *and* Mark
Keane might just make a decent corner/full forward.

posted 26 January 2004 08:51 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by GUNTHER:

He must believe there is enough talent there to make up their loss..otherwise he would surely not have gambled on them making a choice.

---

How much of Padjoes reputation and Limericks Hurling season hinges on the above statement???

posted 26 January 2004 09:58 AM         

the best thing for limerick now would be for the county board to announce that whelehan is the manager and his decisions are final.
the way people are talking about dialogue and consultation etc would make you think that it was some kind of back to nature happy clappy commune we were talking about.

why should whelehan talk to anyone. theres nothing to talk about in his view. you play one or the other end of story.

there are plenty of good hurlers in limerick without them.

posted 26 January 2004 01:39 PM         

By Diarmuid O'Flynn
LIMERICK football manager Liam Kearns and his selectors are to consider
their position at the end of the year as the dual player row continues
to divide the county.

Kearns launched a stinging broadside at County Board chiefs yesterday as
the six players involved issued their own statement on the controversy.
Said Kearns: "There are no winners here, only losers".

Kearns said no meeting on the controversy had ever taken place between
himself and hurling manager Padjoe Whelehan, despite repeated efforts by
him to set up such talks. Eventually, Kearns revealed, he was left to
negotiate through county secretary Jimmy Hartigan.

"My heart bleeds for the players. I know how committed they are, some of
them are the most committed players you'd meet. One of them said to me,
'I'm so frustrated with all of this I'm thinking of heading to America
for the summer and forgetting about the GAA'. He's one of the most
committed players I've ever seen on the field, in hurling and football.
We're a dual-player county, that policy is there, for dual players to be
supported by the County Board.

"I cannot understand how that policy has not been adhered to, how that
policy has not withstood the test of this situation, and clearly, it
hasn't. There is an old saying that probably covers this situation", he
said: "the tail wagging the dog".

Padjoe Whelehan would not comment on the row last night but indicated
the hurling management would issue their own statement today.

The six players involved - Stephen Lucey, Brian Begley, Mark Keane,
Conor Fitzgerald, Mike O'Brien and Mark O'Riordan - issued their own
statement, accusing hurling management of denying them the right to
represent their county in both codes.

"We did not opt out of the panel - we were presented with an ultimatum.
We could not walk out on the football panel or on Liam Kearns.

"The situation was very badly handled. There was completed lack of
dialogue, compromise, co-operation and common sense. The dual player
policy still stands but is not worth the paper it is written on. We are
amateur players and have given tremendous dedication to Limerick
hurling. Our contribution has been overlooked."

Kearns said he had adopted a 'case by case' attitude to demands on each
of the six: "In Stephen Lucey's case I only wanted him for competitive
matches. He's up in Dublin, coming down on Fridays to train with the
hurlers and I didn't see any point in bringing him down any more often
than that. In Mark O'Riordan's and Mike O'Brien's case I wanted them for
one night's training, then twice with the hurlers, play a competitive
match with us. Brian Begley and Conor Fitzgerald are both injured at the
moment, so we didn't discuss them. Mark Keane is named as one of the six
but he has a young child, had more or less made his mind up that he was
going to play football only.

"He (Jimmy Hartigan) got back to me and told me no meeting would be
taking place. At that stage there was nothing more I could do, it was
down to the County Board to sort it out."

Kearns said a definite dual player policy was confirmed late last year,
when he agreed a new two-year deal with Limerick.

"Because there was no hurling manager in place at the time, I sought
assurances that the dual players would be available and that any
prospective hurling manager would be told at interview stage that
Limerick was a dual-player county. I was told that would happen, but I
now have to wonder if it did.

posted 26 January 2004 04:28 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by ARMIN TAMZARIAN:
Fair play to Padjoe for sticking by his guns. Following Dave Keane we needed a strong ruthless personality and Padjoe has already proven he's up to the task. CLOSURE is what is now needed so it's time Liam Kearns and the six lads forgot about it like Padjoe already seems to have and got on with their business

---

Fair play to you Armin, couldn't agree with you more. Pajo gave the lads a choice and instead of making up their minds they went and organised a caucus meeting behind Pajo's back and threatened to choose football only unless he backed down ( while expecting the Co Board to fully support them ). When this didn't happen and Pajo found out about this meeting, they were already dead men walking. I believe Pajo was already pissed off anyway with two of the footballers for playin football on the qt on a hurling squad training weekend just after a hurling session one Saturday morning,
I think Liam Kearns is on a winner here, not because of the 6 who are now playing football, but because he now has a way out of the job if he fails to win Munster this year. And let's face it, if he can't win it this year he never will, so he is using this as an excuse to bail out if they fail again.
Once again the hurling panel are not short of 6 players, rather two at the most ie Conor and Brian. Their statement was a little bit hollow to say the least, and going on about their commitment to Limerick hurling cut no ice with me. I mean there are guys on the current squad who have given at least ten years service each and you don't hear them going on about thieir contribution to Limerick hurling. Indeed there are many who have gone before them who have only got stiches to show for their efforts, so it was a little bit much to go on about their commitment especially when some player(s) commitment to training would be diluted to say the least.
And for their hope for common sense to prevail............It has !! The day of the dual player is gone.

posted 26 January 2004 06:29 PM         

I would not fault either Liam Kearns or Pad-joe in this instance.In this day and age dual player commitments would require a superhuman effort.Fair enough if the lads were going to gave that sort of commitment but,especially in relation to the hurling camp,it was just not viable.

The whole thing was yet again badly handled by the board.Assuming they knew Pad-joe's stance all they had to do to take the heat out of the situation was to issue a statement after his appointment saying that,unfortunately, the dual player role would not be viable in the future.Players would have to focus on one sport.A bit of leadership was all that was required.

posted 27 January 2004 09:20 AM         

Just supposing all six made the panel of 25 (unlikely I know). With football committments as well PJ might only have 19 of his panel later on in the league or for challenges. Then throw in a few injuries and he might end up working off 15 players! Then what would he do, bring back lads dropped in January to make up the numbers?

posted 27 January 2004 12:43 PM         

The era of the dual player at county level is gone, like it or
lump it!

The county board let the situation season, perhaps a little too
laissez-faire for some people's liking. It was common knowledge
when Pad Joe came in that he would not tolerate the dual mandate.
I'm fairly sure a contributor wrote about it here early on,
probably from OY if memory serves me right. The writing was on
the wall, no doubt. For people to doubt this was silly! It hurt
Cregan in 2001, it hurt Keane last year to a degree. The really
stupid thing would have been for it to continue to be allowed for
a third year... Pad Joe came in with a clean slate and he's
quickly impressed upon everyone and sundry that the messing has
to stop, all forms of messing on and off the field.

The players made their choice and should stick to it. I don't
understand why Kearns has gotten involved to muddy the waters
even further, ratcheting up the pressure on *his* players and the
board and himself, unnecessarily.

The media are playing silly buggers here too, crying from the
rooftops about the injustice of it all etc. What bloody
injustice? It's not possible any longer to train and play up to
6 or 7 or 8 times a week. It's a fact of life. Other counties
came to that conclusion a few years ago. The stupid thing is
that it's taken LK this long to realise this and legislate for
it.

Yes, the board were silly not to come out and make a firm
decision on the status of the dual players earlier. However, by
employing Pad Joe they were implicitly backing the abolition of
the dual mandate though? If they had come out to squash the dual
mandate officially, they would have been creamed in the media?
They were probably hoping to do it by the backdoor i.e. last
week's events but too many others weren't willing to let it lie
there...

Yes, Pad Joe should have met Kearns. However, are we surprised
that Pad Joe didn't meet him though. Pad Joe isn't a dioplomat
and wouldn't have much truck with shooting the breeze. Why did
Kearns push this situation knowing, as he probably did, that most
of the dual players were going to pick football anyhow?

Yes, Kearns is rightly annoyed not to have been able to discuss
this with his hurling counterpart. However, Kearns comments on
Sunday aren't helpful to anyone including himself and the
players. Maybe he's trying to throw the bright lights of
negative publicity onto the county board. Perhaps he's fallen
out with them on other issues or just doesn't like them too much.

Yes, the players might be hard done by for not being allowed to
play both games or to exercise free choice. However, it would be
more in their best interests to keep their flipping mouths shut
and heads down and do their talking on the pitch instead of in
the press tents and in the pubs before/after training/games.

posted 27 January 2004 02:28 PM         

he made a decision and they tried to get that decision overturned by resigning en masse. (there can be no other explanation for what brian begley has done.)

kearns has realised that he is going to have a couple of disaffected hurlers on his squad now and may even have to cut one or two of them completely so he is trying to re open the debate.
the real winner here is pad joe whelehan and limerick hurling as he will have a 100% committed squad.
more importantly everyone in the squad will be fearful of stepping out of line in any way.

begley should be advised by people who he respects to cop himself on and break ranks. he is running out of years faster than the rest of them and is the most established hurler involved.
the rest of them should be forgotten about.
limerick do not need them to win an all ireland any more than the clare hurlers needed cyril lyons, tommy guilfoyle and jim mcinerney in 95. all three were vital players in the previous few years and were proven at intercounty level. clare also lost eamon taffe who was the star of the league that year and whose only contribution in 95 was to finish the goal chance in the final.
no one is bigger than the group in team sport.

posted 27 January 2004 02:35 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by LimerickNomad:
Anyone else hear Sportscall last night? A copy of it should be
available on the web at the RTE site. 35 to 40 minutes of going
around in circles basically. Silly stuff mostly.

The era of the dual player at county level is gone, like it or
lump it!

The county board let the situation season, perhaps a little too
laissez-faire for some people's liking. It was common knowledge
when Pad Joe came in that he would not tolerate the dual mandate.
I'm fairly sure a contributor wrote about it here early on,
probably from OY if memory serves me right. The writing was on
the wall, no doubt. For people to doubt this was silly! It hurt
Cregan in 2001, it hurt Keane last year to a degree. The really
stupid thing would have been for it to continue to be allowed for
a third year... Pad Joe came in with a clean slate and he's
quickly impressed upon everyone and sundry that the messing has
to stop, all forms of messing on and off the field.

The players made their choice and should stick to it. I don't
understand why Kearns has gotten involved to muddy the waters
even further, ratcheting up the pressure on *his* players and the
board and himself, unnecessarily.

The media are playing silly buggers here too, crying from the
rooftops about the injustice of it all etc. What bloody
injustice? It's not possible any longer to train and play up to
6 or 7 or 8 times a week. It's a fact of life. Other counties
came to that conclusion a few years ago. The stupid thing is
that it's taken LK this long to realise this and legislate for
it.

Yes, the board were silly not to come out and make a firm
decision on the status of the dual players earlier. However, by
employing Pad Joe they were implicitly backing the abolition of
the dual mandate though? If they had come out to squash the dual
mandate officially, they would have been creamed in the media?
They were probably hoping to do it by the backdoor i.e. last
week's events but too many others weren't willing to let it lie
there...

Yes, Pad Joe should have met Kearns. However, are we surprised
that Pad Joe didn't meet him though. Pad Joe isn't a dioplomat
and wouldn't have much truck with shooting the breeze. Why did
Kearns push this situation knowing, as he probably did, that most
of the dual players were going to pick football anyhow?

Yes, Kearns is rightly annoyed not to have been able to discuss
this with his hurling counterpart. However, Kearns comments on
Sunday aren't helpful to anyone including himself and the
players. Maybe he's trying to throw the bright lights of
negative publicity onto the county board. Perhaps he's fallen
out with them on other issues or just doesn't like them too much.

Yes, the players might be hard done by for not being allowed to
play both games or to exercise free choice. However, it would be
more in their best interests to keep their flipping mouths shut
and heads down and do their talking on the pitch instead of in
the press tents and in the pubs before/after training/games.

A semi-outsider's opinions on my reading of recent events!

---

posted 27 January 2004 05:35 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by evileye:

was that a reply to my topic nomad??wrong place

---

e,