Carl: First you recall. You wake up—that’s what they call it here, you wake up. For me I didn’t wake up—I came back. You lie in your hospital bed realising. Realising what? Where you are. What you are. There is a figure passing by—she asks me my name, the date, what year we’re in…and you laugh because it’s funny. Because time is totally irrelevant; age is non-existent; names don’t matter at all. I could not speak because I had bitten my tongue so badly. I couldn’t even laugh (he laughs), but inwardly it felt like laughing. You just lie there and the whole film comes back to you. It’s like a puzzle coming back. You remember….

It was wonderful—there, I did not feel any pain. I was conscious. I was clear. I could see. I felt alright—nothing wrong with me. You have your last memories of that place when you floop back. I call it "flooping back" because it’s really like, Floooop… with a white bang. It really is like sliding into your body and switching on the heat. An extraordinary happening.

Carl: I was coming back. I was flooping back into the world. You want to remain there. Initially I didn’t want to open my eyes and listen to what the doctors and nurses were saying or what was happening. So I want to say to people who work in hospitals, "Just treat those who return a little bit different." When people do come back, hospital staff should say, "Hello, welcome back!", not "Ha, do you know your name?"

Carl: The first thing I remembered was travelling toward a white light and then, Floop!—I was brought back. But then I began to realise there was a lot more that I had seen and done in my dream. I call it a dream, to myself and later to other people—but it is more than a dream because it affects you much more than any ordinary dream ever will affect you. It’s a
life-changer…I became more of an observer. You observe everything, in a different light.

Carl: Well, I observed that I was all on my own there. Yet I had no fear. I didn’t know what was going to happen. It felt extraordinarily peaceful there. Quiet, too. Everything you want here, you have it there. But strangely enough, you are all on your own. There is nothing, there is nobody, there is nothing to support you. You feel at home though, you really feel at home. And then it was stopped. I just flooped back. Flooping back I passed the people I had met previously—my father and my uncle. When I had met them first, for some weird reason—I don’t know why—you ask about all the people that you have known here in the world and aren’t here anymore. You think of your grandfather, friends. Without the accident, I probably would never have thought of them. You ask their whereabouts, how they are, that sort of thing.

My dad and uncle were in touch with me, they were in touch with my reality. They knew me—I didn’t have to say anything. They were there for me, and they were there with me and they were part of my life very much. They welcome you. You are a lost son, so to speak. I knew he was my father, but there he wasn’t my father at all. There is no hierarchy there, no fathers or sisters or brothers. You are all equal! So it’s only afterwards that I called him my father. It was just a nice person that was there for me and I knew him here as Father. He knew everything about me, the last bit of me. You’d think that you would be embarrassed about that—but no embarrassment there. There is no privacy, no privacy at all. But it is relaxing. You meet him, you are welcomed, you are drawn into something. You keep meeting people who were a part of your circle here, who you lost or pushed out of your life here. When you meet them there, you say, "Ah! You’re here. I didn’t know you were so important." It’s like clusters of people you remember. Extraordinary again.

The questions about people that I asked my father and uncle came up in me, and through them I wanted to have an answer. Funny enough, everyone I asked about were all OK, every one of them, and I accepted it without further questioning.

Carl: No, not with words. The questions that I posed, they weren’t answered by my father or my uncle. You get the answer yourself, so to speak. It’s strange, but as soon as I thought of somebody, I had the answer. My grandmother—woops!—I knew the answer immediately, where she was or what happened to her. There was only one person who bothered me afterwards. Some people had gone to the right-hand destiny and others had gone to the left. Now to the left there was nothing, a black emptiness. This person had gone to the left and I went to the right. But I didn’t feel any sorrow or anger or fear—nothing. It was OK there as well.

Carl: Well, that’s another mystery to me, why you go left or why you go right. It just happens. I didn’t feel I had any choice at all. You have no choice, and yet you are not angry nor do you want to do anything else. You accept, it’s just what is. Here it creates all sorts of problems with free will, but it is not a problem there for some funny reason. There are many things that we make problems of here and they are no problem there at all. When I came back I thought perhaps the left is for people who return, who come back, reincarnation perhaps. I had no explanation. The right, you could call it the Christian thing of heaven. But that heaven is not a stable place. First of all it’s not a place as such, it’s a state of mind….But before this (this explanation is all mixed up—I have no timetable) you see your life. Some of those things in your life are totally unimportant here, but there, they are important. There was an incident where I did something bad to a cat—a cat that I tried to kill, and it took a while to kill her. I had never thought of it as a dirty deed. It just so happened that that cat was very much there (laughs), and I felt very very bad and very sorry about it all.

Carl: Yes, oh yes. That’s the message to take home. You see the events of your life in a different light there altogether.

Carl: Yes. There, I suffered more than here. In terms of suffering—you SEE. I saw the suffering of that cat and I felt horrible.

Carl: Oh yes, they are definitely there, for me they are there. It may sound like a joke but they are there. You enter your own world there, but you are aware of other worlds being there, and not just the animal world—there are other vibrancies there. I knew there were a group of souls there and that they represented the animals. My cat came to me in a flash. I saw what I had done to that cat. What a horrible day! I felt bad, I felt very bad; but as you see the bad thing, immediately it’s forgiven. You forgive yourself then, and with it comes an understanding—not why you did it, but that it was a part of your life, part of my life, I suppose part of the life of the cat as well. I could have done it differently, but at that point in time I probably couldn’t. I didn’t have the understanding that I have now either.

So there you are, the animals are there, no doubt about it for me. That cat was there, but you also have my father, my uncle, myself, and all the other people that I felt were there.

Carl: Oh yea, there is a vibrancy there—movement. You know that there is a lot happening there, a lot! And yet, there is nothing happening, it’s so whispering quiet.

Carl: (Exhales) It is very, very difficult. It’s like a magnetism pulling you. And there is a wind there as well, you feel wind all around you. You can’t see the people and yet they were there somewhere all the time. They were very close and I felt comfortable with them.

So my dream about my life is like a dream in a dream—your life is there but it is only a fragmented flash. (Claps his hands) Just like that it goes, and you just remember bits and pieces of it.

Carl: It’s like a judgement. You judge yourself. But you don’t feel anything about this—there’s no good or bad there. There is no distinction. It’s all one. There is only you, and you see flashes of what is laying behind you, your actions. But these flashes are so different from the ones you think are important here. And my father and uncle were informed to the last minute and degree of my life anyway, and did not judge either; on the contrary, their initial welcome had already removed all fear of judgement that might have been lurking in me.

Carl: That makes you feel so comfortable as well. You don’t have to say anything or do anything. They know you. Even if you have been a very bad person, who will judge you?

Carl: There was nothing like that there. There is no judgement as you would have here. That is the beauty of that place that there is no judgement. But this "goodness"—let’s call it that—this forgiveness that I saw and experienced there became a problem for me when I returned. I heard some horrible stories about people when I returned to this world, but those people are not going to be punished—there is no punishment. That is a hard and difficult one to understand and come to terms with here!

Carl: Maybe, but "I" did not suffer in my life review. There is such a marked difference with the sensations you have here, with pain and suffering. I mean, there you don’t have that at all.

Carl: I don’t know. If they do suffer it’s over in no time at all—it really is. And that makes you realise how short life is here. (Claps) Oops! Gone. And you know, judging in the sense that you come back and say, "I am going to readjust that, I am going to correct my life, I’m now on a mission here"—I certainly don’t have any of that at all.

And that’s another thing, when you do come back, there’s a last sentence that is given to you—well, to me—and it has to do with your life. It involves living on. It’s like a new life. I’m living a new life now. I feel more like an observer, a participating observer.

Carl: I could tell you the sentence, Larry, and it would just be a sentence. There is the way it was said and what was implied, that is the important thing. That’s why I am hesitant to tell you what I heard, because what you hear is not relevant, actually. It’s the feeling of it, the intrinsic quality.

Carl: My father. That sentence remains with you forever. But of course there were other things there as well, not just my father (and uncle)—lots of other living things who could have said it.

Carl: Well, that movement, that wind, that’s the life all around you. You feel a sense of coming and going there, but it’s a nice coming and going, no hustle and bustle. It is a very strange sensation.

Carl: I didn’t meet any "holy" person there at all—no Christ. The longest part I remember from my dream is the sensation of travel, and all around you you feel that buzz, that wind—I call it a wind, there are no other words, words are very inadequate. But you feel part of something wonderful, something grandiose. Your travel—I call it travel, but you don’t feel it travelling as such—you go towards a yellow-white light. It starts off very small and gets brighter and brighter and brighter, ahhhh! It’s like looking at the sun, but it doesn’t blind you at all. There’s a buzz there, but don’t ask me what was happening. I know but I cannot tell you—it’s creation itself, let’s put it that way. It’s the buzz of creation. That place there is not a part of life—it is life. You want to go there, yet there is nothing you can see. There is nobody waiting there. It would be scary here, but it is not scary there. There is something there; you go to that light and you feel home. You feel like that’s where you came from, that’s where you go back to. And I call that God. It’s as if you have left a part of yourself behind there, and you go back to that, and it’s as if it’s the loveliest part of yourself that you have left behind there. An indescribably wonderful love streams out of it. Sometimes I think it’s because we have left it behind there, that sense of love. We’ve left it there, we go back to it, pick it up again, do something with it, I don’t know what. But that light, I cannot say it’s just a light like a light bulb, no. Behind that light there’s a reality, and that’s where you want to travel to and find out the reality of it. You leave all the rest behind with no hesitation or coercion.

But my problem now is what are my father and uncle doing there still that they haven’t travelled on to the end. It’s like they HAD to be there for me. Why do they have to stay there; why can’t they go on; why are all the others gone? Why do they keep in touch with me—but not with just me, but with other family members and others I’m not aware of. They are in touch with here.

Carl: Oh yes. I was there. It was me. I did not lose my identity.

Carl: I think I would have still remained myself. I felt very much part of a wider thing. You get a notion of what lies behind that light, see. But what is that light in the first place?—It’s you!

Carl: That is you. That is you. You see that light. It is something different, but you feel it’s something of you as well. It’s you as well, it’s part of you. You feel very much part of that thing that you see in the distance. That’s why you feel so—"I’m going home, I’m going back. Eee!" It’s as if you have left something behind there. You want to take it up again. You are travelling toward yourself, actually. Behind that "LIGHT" lies the real truth. You feel there’s more, how would I say, love there, real love, love for the sake of love. Unconditional, welcoming. I recommend it to everybody as an experience (laughs).

Carl: No, I don’t think you can. When you’re dead, you will experience it there. I feel it is important to note it, but live the life that you have gotten here to the full in an expectation that when you are not here any more, you will be part of something extraordinary—and it is extraordinary. I know what is waiting there, in my case certainly, and I hope to go back there.

Carl: Yes, my words are so poor. I do my best to clarify it as much as possible, but how can you? All these concepts that we have here, they don’t apply there at all. Everything is one there. My vision of things is this, I’m more at ease with myself now. I don’t take things so seriously any more; yet I know everything is serious. You should be able to laugh at everything. You realise that when you come back, it’s a big laugh.

Carl: Yea. Even that. They are here and you are not going to change that—they are going to happen. We try to understand everything here, you see. When you are there, you don’t try to understand—you KNOW! You are part of it, you don’t have to understand. That’s the Oneness of it all. It’s like an animal almost, like with my cows. When I observe them they are happy within themselves. There, it is the same feeling—you are happy within yourself, you are part of something and you don’t pose these questions that we have here at all.

Catastrophes? I’m not saying they are necessary or unnecessary. Who am I to judge these things? I am not a judge. They are not my doing. They will happen. That’s life, yea.

Carl: Forgiveness is to realise that that person, that being, is what it is. It’s part of that LIGHT that you are going toward. It comes from there. Been created just like yourself, it’s there. I think that’s what forgiveness is, just knowing that that being is as important as you are. It just behaves differently than you do. Perhaps in other circumstances what it does is quite normal too and OK. That is forgiveness—to be OPEN. All is One. All in one. There is no other content I’m afraid.

Carl: Ah yes, yes of course. That light, as I said, you realise is you. That is you there. So yes, that’s what brings me back to the Quakers, very much so. The light is in you. But of course we all see that light in a different way. So when I see that light now, rather than having read it in a Quaker book, I have my own description, my own feeling. For me it is a reality, very much so. Yes, I have a good message here; Quakers are right and many people with them are right. You have something within you, you carry that in you and you come from there. That is the homecoming experience in a nutshell. Yes, Quakers, they are correct, that light within one—there is such a thing. And you can talk to that light, too.

Carl: In a certain way it is, but it doesn’t give you any clues. It leads you, yet you don’t get the sense that it leads you to something. It is happening, that’s all. But you know, that’s what I gained as well—you just know that in the end everything is OK. Everything will be alright. Whatever happens for me it’s OK, I am part of it. We shouldn’t try to understand it, because that is life. Nobody will ever understand life. I will never understand that light. Where did it come from? What is it? I haven’t a clue. But yet I feel very good when it’s there—Ah, it’s wonderful. But there ends my understanding of it.

Carl: I have great difficulties with that question. Why? In the first place my own anger that I had to be back here, of all places (laughs); not my preferred place actually. But all the same I am back, and now I am not angry. I’m not going to commit suicide to be back there! No, on the contrary you have a sense that you have to go on now with whatever you are required to do here. But don’t ask me why I have to do what I have to do, because to me it looks senseless. It’s totally irrelevant when I’m dead. But there must be a relevance there which I don’t understand here—but there, it’s an understanding unlike any understanding here, mark my words. Your understanding there is more in line with "You are part of it", no questions. And then that love—I haven’t a clue where that love comes from, but it’s a love…You can never describe it, it’s not at all like making love to anybody. No, I will not attempt to describe it. It’s impossible. I haven’t a clue why the planet is what it is, why we live here. Is it to understand that love there? I don’t know. What I have experienced makes things worse in a sense, because now everything is up in the sky for me—I have to question everything almost and get no really satisfying answer.

Carl: They are there, just like Hitler and Pol Pot and all the rest of them.

Carl: They are there, yes. You talk about all these important people from here—there, as I say, they are all the same. You do have that sense of the importance of some forms that you feel. But I couldn’t, I didn’t put a face to these winds or whatever you call them. But I have the inclination to believe that there are forms that go there that do return here or other places. They must have come from that same light that I’ve seen, and perhaps returning here they have a better notion and tried to bring the light here a little bit. But it’s not just here, that’s the point. There are other places, but don’t ask me is it Mars.

There are people there that I hated here, like my grandfather, twaa! I hated him and he hated me. Other people as well. Now I have no hurt feelings or resentment towards him or the others any more—it’s gone. And I know, whether they go left or right, that they are OK. Everybody is OK there. You embrace everything there. Every religion has something. Indeed, all religions are one. They all have something to tell.

Carl: Ah, yes of course. They are correct, but at the same time they are not right either (laughs). How could we be correct here? We bounce; we see crooked; we have been cut off.

Carl: No. I have no fear of death; I don’t have a fear of pain either—not even the pain of dying. That’s a relief (laughs). That’s another thing—life is not here. Life is there. This is only "something"…. I tell people, there is nothing to be fearful of. I’m not saying, "Please jump into it and try to be dead as soon as possible." On the contrary, I’m saying to everybody, "Live life to the full, as full as possible in your own case." You are being created. You are an identity.

Carl: It should be an occasion of thinking about the world they have entered. Life goes on. It does not end when you are dead. You take on a form. There, you are a form. You don’t see yourself as a form, but you are a form, so you have an identity. You are something, but that something can be part of anything. Anything you can think of. You can be a part of it, you can be it. And that’s an extraordinary sensation as well. You are not human anymore. Your body is gone, you don’t have a brain, you don’t have all these thoughts that we have here. You don’t have to explain anything, but you are still something very important in your own right. You are part of the creative force, and that’s a sensation you should cultivate here more. We are equally part of the animals, and I am sure other creatures from other places were around me there with whom we might have a connection. Life here is very important. Asceticism, whipping yourself and all that sort of thing—don’t do that, please. It’s totally unnecessary. Just live according to your own good inner feeling. Try to relate, to go within yourself, as Friends say. Just sit back, relax, be quiet, listen to yourself because it’s you out there, in there!

Carl: As fully as you FEEL you have to live it. But that means that you have to reflect upon yourself and your actions. Talk to yourself. Actually prayer is talking to yourself, not something out of you there. That light that I saw there, you could call it God but I call it myself. You are God as well. There is nothing special outside of you there—that’s my great feeling.

Carl: Yes. In essence you are your own guide, but there are forces around you that will help you in guiding you. There is nobody to take over for you, but there are guides around you there, out there, and they will help you. You try to contact them. But don’t pray to them.

Carl: Hah! Well, you are there and there’s nothing to be inflated about. (Laughs) Inflation is here—you puff yourself up here. You go there, and what is the important point? The point is that you are going to find your own Self, and that’s what you want, that’s the only thing you look forward to. So when you’re here, go into your Self.

Carl: Yea. I like very much that concept of silence and being prayerful. You try to reach yourself and not something else outside—that’s not there. You have every little answer, and if you don’t, it will come to you anyway. All will be revealed! And it is not an expectation but my experience! That’s my experience. And ‘tis wonderful—I tell you it really is wonderful. I am not saying I’m looking forward to being dead now, because I have already had it a little bit. But only when we have a notion of death will it help us to live a bit better here.

It is like this—I remember a film based on fact where a whole group of tinkers, travelling people in Hungary actually, just waited—the adult men and the young ones—for the army to kill them. I couldn’t understand that. Why didn’t they flee? They just sat there in peace waiting for the army to attack them. They urged the young ones to go quickly, "Go on, go on!", and then they made a circle with their vehicles. How can they do these things—why don’t they stand up for themselves? They look like cattle.

They must have been very spiritual people. They must have been in touch. They must have been praying a lot—because then you feel that peace. It’s like coming out of meeting…sometimes you have it more than at other times. You are at peace. That is my hope, huh—that you get that PEACE.