23 November 2005
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: This is a Seanad Bill which has been amended by the Dáil. In accordance with Standing Order 103 it is deemed to have passed its First, Second and Third Stages in the Seanad and is placed on the Order Paper for Report Stage.
[On podiatrists]
Mr. Cummins: I thank the Minister of State for explaining these amendments. If professional bodies agree that "podiatrist" is the term that should be used in the event of disagreement, we would support the amendment.
Dr. Henry: As the Minister of State can imagine, I am delighted with this amendment having spent a great deal of time arguing that "podiatrist" should be the terminology used in the Bill. I thank him very much for the change. The change is important because a degree in podiatry will be recognised; that is covered in Schedule 3. If we are to recognise a degree in podiatry we are obliged to have that description in the Bill. I am glad this sensible amendment is being made.
A concern I have is that we do not yet have a school of podiatry in this country and, unfortunately, as the Minister of State will be aware from his professional background, we do not need one school but several because with people living longer and the huge increase in the incidence of diabetes, many more people badly need the care of podiatrists from a medical point of view. That is not just to keep them on their legs but to ensure they are not overtaken by complications of illness, which require them to be admitted to hospital in some cases, whereas if they had access to a qualified podiatrist on a regular basis, all would be well. The school of podiatry must be established as soon as possible.
That is also important from the point of view of the establishment of the board to regulate podiatrists because a member of that board must be someone qualified in podiatry in this country. The fact that we do not have such a person is a complication. I suggested during the passage of the Bill through this House that we should take someone with a qualification from outside the country until a school of podiatry is established here. We need someone with experience to become a member of the board but that is not covered in the Bill. When replying, will the Minister of State explain how that will be dealt with? Will someone from an academic institution with a qualification in podiatry be available to go on the board or will it be someone who is working in a school of podiatry here? We may not be able to acquire someone like that for quite some time and I would not wish to see any delay in the setting up of the board for podiatrists.
Mr. Ryan: Níl a fhios agam cad a tharla le grúpa a haon but they are only minor matters. I am delighted that the wisdom of Senator Henry and Seanad Éireann in particular was finally acknowledged. To paraphrase Churchill's wonderful quote, never was so much of the time of so many people devoted to one word.
Ms Feeney: I take my hat off to Senator Henry who was like a dog with a bone on this issue. She was not going to let it go; it was going to stay on the agenda. The amendment is most welcome. As Senator Maurice Hayes said, the professionals called for the change although as the Minister of State said, the general public will probably continue to call it chiropody. I thank the Minister of State for being most accommodating in terms of the amendments on all Stages and in getting help from his officials.
Dr. Henry: These amendments seem reasonable. However, I again have concerns in regard to the situation of podiatrists. Section 9(3)(b)(iii) provides that one of the members of the council will be "representative of third level educational establishments involved in the education and training of persons with respect to the practice of the designated professions and is nominated by the Minister for Education and Science". Will the Minister of State explain how we can get around this provision in regard to podiatry, given that there is no relevant third level institution? Must we wait until such is established? I am otherwise in agreement with the amendments.
[On psychologists]
Dr. Henry: I welcome the amendments as they clarify matters. I also welcome other groups approaching various Senators and the Minister of State in order to be placed on statutory registers. We needed to go ahead with the then best organised groups as we could otherwise be waiting to get everyone moving forward in an organised way.
One matter the groups are not clear on is that the various registration boards, once they make everything transparent, have a good level of autonomy. Other Senators and I have received considerable amounts of correspondence from psychologists. I can tell by those nodding that they have received correspondence also. These psychologists believed that the qualification for psychology outlined in Schedule 3 was insufficient to be on their registers. I was assured in the House, as were we all, that these registration boards could increase the required qualifications. I would welcome the Minister of State's clarification of this matter for the benefit of those outside the House.
I was sure that I was right on this issue but the psychologists believe that a recognised psychology degree or diploma attained with first or second class honours is not enough, which I can understand. They believe people should have specialist training in the different branches of psychology. On reading the Bill again, especially in light of the amendments, all that boards must do is be transparent in what they do and bring it before the Houses.
Ms Feeney: I agree with Senator Henry's comments. On examination of the areas of psychology at third level and first or second class honours degrees, people must do postgraduate studies in order to secure employment.
[On the meaning of "registration"]
Dr. Henry: These amendments are to be welcomed. I have some anxiety to ensure that the general public will be made very aware of which professions are on a statutory register. One will see advertisements for "registered osteopath" but what register is being referred to? We must ensure it is well known which people are on a statutory register. I am sure these osteopaths are perfectly fine people and are doing a very good job but it should be ensured that the general public knows which professions have registers. All too sadly, there have been grim cases where people have become involved from a medical point of view with people who are not subject to any rules or regulations. It is bad enough when professions are subject to rules and regulations but at least there is some form of redress when problems arise. It is important that the public are made aware of which professions are registered on a statutory basis.
[On physiotherapists and physical therapists]
Dr. Henry: This House considered aspects of the issue regarding EU nationals who would get qualifications outside the European Union, but I am glad to see that we left something for the Dáil to do. These are important amendments.
I wish to mention one of my disappointments with the Bill. I understand the way it was decided to protect just one name only for each profession and I want to return to that of physiotherapist and the problem arising with physiotherapist and physical therapist. While we are correctly bringing in these other EU qualifications, the Minister of State will be aware that the United Kingdom legislation protects physical therapist with physiotherapist. Therefore, there is some conflict in this section. There is protection for titles being given but at the same time there is no protection of physical therapists in Schedule 3 and earlier in the Bill.
As the Minister of State will be aware, the chartered physiotherapists have state for years that our legislation should protect the title "physical therapist" with "physiotherapist" because of the occasional confusion that can arise here on this issue and I am sorry that this has not happened. I fear we may run into trouble in these sections where the term "physical therapist" may be used to describe someone who we would call a physiotherapist and to acquire those qualifications.
Apart from that, I welcome the changes the Minister of State has made here. In view of the fact that the Belfast Agreement stated that we should try to ensure that the various qualifications in all parts of the island are in line with each other, I regret the fact that in this instance we will provide for a situation where in Northern Ireland physical therapist and physiotherapist are protected and in the Republic of Ireland only physiotherapist will be protected. I was one of those enthusiastic about the fact that we, particularly in the medical area, should try to get as much agreement as possible within the legislation.
Ms Feeney: I echo the sentiments expressed of my colleague, Senator Henry.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
Dr. Henry: I am sure the Minister of State can understand the gratitude, not only of those present, offered to him and his officials on the introduction of the Bill as it has been sought for almost 20 years. It is well that it is such good legislation because it is extremely important. It is important that the members of the professions covered by the Bill ensure publicity is used to show that they are the ones with statutory registration.
The working of the Bill will probably be quite simple.
The matters which Senator Feeney brought forward, based on her experience on the Medical Council, are important. These include continuing education, which is of such importance nowadays, and competence assurance. As the Minister of State said, when people qualified years ago that was it, and no one had to do any more study.
I will just ask him to do one thing further, namely, try to get something done about the medical practitioners Act, which has been sought for 20 years as well. I told the House recently that I was assured six years ago, at this time of the year, that the Bill would be ready before Christmas. My mistake was not to ask which Christmas.
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