04 July 2006
Dr. Henry: Since I introduced my Bill eight years ago, at least 10,000 children have been born in this country from IVF. That represents 10,000 women who gave birth using this method. At least 30,000 women underwent treatment, a huge number in respect of an unregulated area. Despite the latter, members are suggesting that we should allow the current position to obtain until after the general election or longer. I will not see patients allowed to remain in such a situation any longer without expressing my horror that nobody seems to realise that this is a serious medical issue. We cannot ask people about areas which are constitutional in nature. It will take two years to get anything done. We were obliged to wait 20 years for the Department of Health and Children to draw up the Medical Practitioners Act. This is a serious matter that involves patients.
Chairman: I have not had the opportunity to respond. I take what the Senator is saying with sincerity and I know she has a track record in the area. However, that is not the issue with which we are dealing. I will deal with her concerns in a moment. I wish to deal first with a few side issues.
There is no influence on how I operate in this committee. I did not mean to attack the Opposition. I am not in that mode today and I am just trying to resolve this matter. Deputy Twomey made the point that I made an accusation in the newspapers that the Opposition was trying to embarrass the Government. I was responding to questions put to me and no more than that. To save time, we decided that the sub-committee would go through the recommendations in the report only in private session. There was nothing hidden about it and we were always going to have a full meeting today, so there is no time lost.
The reality is that three members from this committee volunteered to sit on the sub-committee. I am not making a heavy play of the fact, but members should not suggest that we were trying to drag our feet. There were three or four other reports published at the same time, yet we had to find time for this report. We are introducing this report in order to discuss the recommendations. It is my view that we are being accused of trying to run for cover. Senator Browne asked whether we were in the business of losing or winning votes. That is not an issue for me and I do not think it is an issue for anyone else either.
Senator Browne: Nor should it be.
Chairman: It should not, but it is important to respond.
Deputy Devins: Then why did the Senator bother to raise it?
Chairman: It is important to respond to that. Since the debate began, I have received at least five letters from pro-life groups, none of which I have answered. I took the position that I would listen to the entire debate. I did not go behind anybody's back and make telephone calls to pro-life groups. Usually, I send a note to those who write to me but I did not do that on this occasion. I have sat through the meetings and can understand the concerns expressed. That there is no regulation is a great problem. There is also no counselling provided. I take the point about the financial implications. The committee never expressed support on the issue of surrogacy, yet I saw a report which suggestsed we had.
I take Senator Henry's point that we have a problem which me must try to resolve. I do not want to park it but, given the fact that it took the commission three years to come to a conclusion--
Deputy McManus: Four years.
Chairman: That is even worse. When we were told we would receive a report, I said there would be public consultation.
Deputy McManus: To what end?
Chairman: When we met the commission, I concluded that there would be no need to hold further hearings. However, I then changed my mind. People can accuse me if they want to but I do not think the sub-committee or this committee can adopt all of the recommendations made because I have not heard from the groups which met the commission. Being selective is not a problem. It will only take a few months and will not waste time.
Deputy McManus: To what end?
Chairman: To hear the response to the commission's report which was not unanimously adopted.
Deputy McManus: It was a minority report in regard to a constitutional issue. We are not in a position to do anything about that but what are the--
Chairman: To ensure - I do not want to use the cliche "the democratic process" - we hear from those who have reservations. We can then make a report.
Deputy McManus: We cannot judge the constitutional issues. The commission could not do so; neither can we. Therefore, the Chairman is wasting the committee's time.
Chairman: No, we are not.
Deputy McManus: If that is the purpose--
Chairman: I do not want to argue.
Senator Feeney: The Chairman did not interrupt any member.
Deputy Twomey: Too much of this democratic process is wrong because women's lives are being put at risk.
Chairman: I will not take that accusation. I want to ensure women's lives are protected.
Deputy Twomey: We are sitting on an issue, the debate on which has been ongoing for the past ten years. It is time to move forward.
Chairman: I will not accept that allegation. We are not sitting here and taking no interest in women's lives. We are doing the opposite. We are trying to ensure this can be put right.
Deputy Twomey: We should urgently request that something--
Chairman: Members, please.
Deputy Twomey: The Supreme Court will again decide.
Senator Browne: The commission was established in March 2000 by the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, to prepare a report on the possible approaches that could be adopted to the regulation of all aspects of assisted human reproduction and the social, ethical and legal factors to be taken into account in determining public policy. I assume public policy formation comes within our remit. What will be achieved by bringing groups back in? We will not achieve unanimity on the issue. The commission drew up recommendations which we must take into account in drawing up public policy but we do not have to accept them fully. It is our job to debate the issue in both Houses.
Dr. Henry: Why do we not just go and have lunch? A decision has been made. Women are being let down badly. Why do we not just leave it at that?
Chairman: We do not want to walk away from the issue.
Dr. Henry: What else is happening?
Chairman: There are 15 of us on this committee and we are trying to make a good decision.
Deputy McManus: There is a Government majority and that is the end of it. The Chairman is prevaricating and refusing to deal with important legislation.
Chairman: We have only been here for 45 minutes.
Deputy McManus: It is a joke. Frankly, I will not hang around.
Chairman: The remaining members will have to complete the business to be conducted.
Senator Browne: When the commission was appointed, were its members made aware that its report would be redone or undone by the Joint Committee on Health and Children?
Chairman: What were its terms of reference?
Senator Browne: I am not sure if the commission was aware that it would come before this committee.
Deputy Devins: In view of the fact that the case is ongoing, it would be premature to make a decision today. When a conclusion has been reached, we can decide whether we should adopt the report.
Deputy Connolly: I do not know if there has just been a walk-out. I would like to know how many groups will appear before the committee, as well as the timescale involved.
Senator Feeney: Like Deputy Connolly, I am wondering what is happening. It is sad that members have walked out because nothing has been agreed. Many have spoken and I agreed with much of what was said. I thought further discussion was needed, especially on the issue of regulation. Last Thursday Senator Henry said we should await the outcome of the case in the High Court. In the meantime, there is no harm in talking to interested groups.
Senator Browne: What will that achieve?
Senator Feeney: Why do we not wait until the professors in the Law Library have sorted what is on their table? From a legal point of view they are much better equipped than any member of this committee. We can be guided by their judgment before we are too hasty.
Chairman: I am sorry members have walked out. Today we have been accused of pulling back and having no interest in the matter. There are two Government members on the sub-committee and one Independent member. We are here today to discuss a report into which much work was put. I was part of the sub-committee and found the issues so complex that it was difficult to follow through on them.
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