30 June 2006
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. M. McDowell): I am pleased to have the opportunity to present this important Bill to Seanad Éireann.
Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister to the House to debate this largely sensible Bill. People living in poorer areas who, as Senator Brian Hayes noted, are acutely affected by crime, have long sought some of the measures proposed in this Bill.
Any measure that helps to convict criminals is welcome. The Minister has addressed that issue, although I doubt increased penalties will make a difference to prisoners' attitudes. I am frequently amazed at the sanguinity with which prisoners regard long sentences. Increased detection rates are the most effective deterrent to crime, so I urge the Minister to give the Garda all the support it needs. However, it is often difficult to determine whether the Garda has sufficient resources because its members often claim a shortage of manpower. When the Minister entered office, he revealed plans to significantly increase the size of the force. I hope he will be able to fulfil those plans because gardaí on the beat make a significant difference in terms of deterring crime. International studies indicate that the fear of detection is more effective than any mandatory sentence.
Like Senator Leyden, I am interested in the provisions on firearms. The number of crimes involving firearms has increased significantly and the criminal classes appear to find them incredibly easy to obtain. I presume firearms are also leaking into the rest of society. I was glad to note the inclusion of crossbows in the legislation. I know of a case in which two ten year old boys succeeded in buying one of these weapons from what was described as a reputable sports shop. Increased surveillance is needed in respect of those who have access to guns. I do not know why 14 year olds are allowed to own guns. The age limit could easily be increased to 18. Many gruesome murders have involved legally-held firearms and were committed by people with no history of psychiatric ill-health. I am unsure whether the Bill adequately addresses that issue.
I am disturbed by the provision that a gun dealer cannot be "a person of unsound mind" without a definition of "unsound mind" in the Bill or the principal Act. I can see the claims which will be made by the Minister's learned colleagues with regard to whether a person underwent a three-week course of Prozac five years ago. I have never heard evidence to the effect that gun dealers are a problem and would have liked to see clearer regulations with regard to who can possess firearms.
I do not know how easy it will be to enforce the provisions on organised crime. I am happy to say that I have never even been on the fringe of organised crime. I am sure the Minister is surprised at that.
Mr. M. McDowell: The Senator was on the fringe of the Labour Party.
Dr. Henry: That is not a proscribed party.
The provisions on the misuse of drugs and the increased penalties for crimes in respect of prisons and detention centres will be difficult to enforce, unless walls of glass are erected between people. I have seen the nets erected to prevent drugs from being thrown into prison yards, which is a pretty amateurish strategy. While I wish the Minister well in his efforts to address the issue, I suspect the problems are sometimes exaggerated. I do not know how many people consume drugs in prisons and am inclined to think that most of the evidence is anecdotal.
It would be useful if more money was provided for treating addiction. Last night, I met Catriona Crowe, the chair of SAOL, a north inner city organisation which treats women with alcohol and drug addiction problems. It also provides employment services with the support of FÁS and a creche which is paid for by the Health Service Executive. SAOL's two-year treatment programme has a success rate of 50%. We should try to imitate that success in other areas, such as prisons, because too many prisoners return to their former milieu after release. I have dealt with people who could go cold turkey for six weeks while in hospital but took drugs again as soon as they were released. We should learn from successful drug addiction programmes rather than be defeatist about the issue.
The CAB has been phenomenally successful, even though it employes a mere 30 people. We should try to reach the next echelon of drug dealers, namely, the people who drive big cars but do not yet own homes in Spain.
Prison terms are necessary for dangerous and violent people but most prisoners are not rehabilitated by incarceration, despite my attempts to involve them in amateur dramatics. It costs between €1,000 and €1,400 per week to keep a person in prison and the money spent on incarcerating people for non-payment of fines and other petty crimes could be better spent. I would not be troubled in the least by electronic tagging if it keeps people out of prison.
I welcome the report recently published by the Minister on promoting the probation and welfare service. Restorative justice has also been supported. The general public has to realise that temporary release is necessary because people cannot simply be thrown onto the streets after a period of imprisonment. Prisoners nearing the completion of their sentences have to get used to society.
I wish to refer to ASBOs. The misery caused by anti-social behaviour is a serious problem.
If the programmes work it would be splendid but the situation in the UK is most unsatisfactory. In some areas an ASBO is worn as a badge of pride.
Several Senators have referred to the presence of parents in court when the ASBO is sought. We have had the problem of parents not turning up in the Children Court for a long time. Some children have no parents and sometimes the parents are totally inadequate. Both parents may be working and may not wish to leave their jobs to attend the hearing. Lone parents may not be able to attend. In the lone parents' report I was particularly anxious that we would not encourage lone parents to return to work while leaving children unsupervised at home. This will cause more problems with ASBOs.
The lack of treatment for children and adolescents with mental illness is a problem. Mental incapacity and mental illness is important and must be addressed. Why not encourage after school clubs in areas with serious problems? Whatever it costs, it would be less than the cost of addressing it later. I am concerned that section 144 states that places of detention will be governed by the rules of the Prisons Acts 1826 to 1980 until new rules are made for children's places of detention. I hope there will not be a long delay.
The section on reckless endangerment of children is a very good idea. We have seen how people are slow to report these matters. Anyone who has authority or control over a child or an abuser can be guilty of an offence. The abuser does not have to be someone who has been convicted. It appears to be anyone who has seriously harmed or sexually abused a child. That will be difficult to enforce. How will the person who is charged with reporting address this?
I regret that the Bill contains section 185, dealing with the protection of medical staff, nursing staff, ambulance and fire crews, but it is essential. Various organisations should encourage education in schools to teach children that these people are essential to our community and should not be the victims of assault. I congratulate the Minister on most of the Bill.
Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. M. McDowell): I thank the Senators for their contributions to this debate which were, as always, insightful and interesting.
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