Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs
24 October 2006
Chairman: I welcome Ms Mary Akrami, director of the Afghan Women's Skills Development Centre, AWSDC. She is accompanied by Mr. Terence G. K. O'Malley and Mr. Brian Hamilton Rodgers from SAFE, an NGO which focuses in its work on Afghanistan. The AWSDC was established in 1999 by a group of committed Afghan women with the aim of reducing the suffering of Afghan women and children through the promotion of peace and rehabilitation and development programmes. As its name suggests, it is a programme for Afghan women with vocational skills and facilities for information designed to enable women to become more self-reliant and improve their status in the family and the community. During the years the centre has shown its ability to help the women of Afghanistan. I call on Mr. O'Malley to introduce Ms Akrami who will tell us more about her organisation, its work and the situation facing women in Afghanistan.
Mr. Terence O'Malley: Ms Akrami is a 30-year old native of Kabul. This is the first time an Afghan woman has spoken to an Oireachtas committee. Before coming to Ireland she appeared in Brussels and attended two meetings of the European network of NGOs working in Afghanistan. She was the first Afghan woman ever to attend their meetings. On 12 October she spoke about women's rights to the European Parliament, where the main speaker was Mr. Francesc Vendrell. Again, she was the only Afghan woman present. Throughout that meeting not one sentence was spoken by members about women's rights in Afghanistan until she stood and spoke for approximately 15 to 20 minutes on the situation of women in Afghanistan. SAFE brought her to Ireland because it wished to help her and could do so only by bringing her here and giving her an opportunity to tell people about her situation and that of women in Afghanistan.
It has been a testing time for Ms Akrami because Ramadan has just finished. It entails the Muslim obligation of fasting from sunrise until sunset. Nothing passed her lips, not even a glass of water from 6 a.m. until 6 p.m., until yesterday. I am glad to say that yesterday she had a very big pizza. It has been tough. She has attended a number of meetings. The day after she arrived she attended the annual conference of the Irish Federation of University Women in the Burlington Hotel and its gala dinner that night. Fortunately, the gala dinner took place after sunset, otherwise she would have gone hungry. To attend meetings and speak to people at length during the day is taxing and she is brave to do so.
I am familiar with her situation in Afghanistan and the peace-building work she does in civil society there. I also know about the shelter programme she operates in Kabul. The programme is not without its dangers, because it is not entirely recognised in Afghanistan. The shelter helps women who have been raped or abused and young women trying to escape a forced marriage or engagement. It also helps young children who have been victims of, or who have witnessed, extreme violence. At the moment there are more than 30 people in a shelter designed for just over 20.
I will hand over to Ms Akrami to tell members of the joint committee her own story. She has experienced the war and the resulting difficulties in Afghanistan. She became a refugee in Pakistan and made it her task to learn English, which is not her first language, and computer studies. She laboured long and hard with a group of committed ladies to gain recognition for women, much of the time without any success. She attended the Bonn conference after 9/11 and the fall of the Taliban. Even in Bonn she was denigrated by one of the Afghan men. She says "gender" refers to men, not women. These are some of the difficulties that Ms Akrami has faced and continues to face. However, she is slowly making progress and conquering.
Ms Mary Akrami: Mr. O'Malley has given so much information about me that there is nothing left to say about my work and the situation in Afghanistan. It is my great pleasure to be present today in the company of members of the Irish Government to talk about the plight of women in Afghanistan and I appreciate the opportunity.
Mr. O'Malley spoke about how my organisation began. I am aged 30 years, which means I have experienced 30 years of war in Afghanistan. I am a member of a luckless generation in having had to suffer such tribulations. I completed school in Kabul despite the war, which caused many problems and much suffering. I successfully graduated from high school in Kabul but the situation worsened after the Taliban came to power and the cause of women's rights deteriorated greatly. It was not exclusively the fault of the Taliban because when any new government came to power in Afghanistan women and children were the first to see and suffer all the problems, as we did.
After that we became refugees in Pakistan, where it was difficult to get a job or to find any means of supporting ourselves or our families. We left to learn English and computer science but I was not, even in Pakistan, able to complete my education satisfactorily because access to good higher education was difficult.
As a group we decided to share our knowledge and to consider how we could pass on what we had learned to other people, especially women and girls who were refugees in Pakistan. We wanted to do something to help them. We succeeded and established this organisation and worked for three years as volunteers in Pakistan.
After the terrorist attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001, people expected many changes because 30 years is a long time to suffer these problems and the loss of more than 10 million people. We were hoping for some positive changes, especially regarding women's rights, as the situation changed. At that time the Taliban treated women badly but when the situation changed, much international assistance came to support the Government and continues to do so. Afghan women, however, still do not have access to basic education, health care, water, sanitation, food and the necessities required for all Afghan people to be able to live in peace and security. Unfortunately, there is no peace or security. Women and children suffer and face many problems.
Many people are still at war, although in different groups. They have simply changed their clothes, not their minds. These are the people in power in parliament and cabinet. There are no women in senior positions who can act for women's benefit because there are no opportunities for women. There is only one woman minister but she has male advisers, although she is the Minister for Women's Affairs. There are also some women members of parliament but even there they do not have the right to say anything because all those who fought before under different names are in power and in senior positions. Women can do nothing, even with some encouragement. At heart it is not possible to act. Although groups come to help the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan, no such groups come to help women receive an education.
Women in rural areas do not have access to basic education, let alone higher education. There are a few women in Kabul, as there were before the war, who have access to higher education. We expected that, given the interest the international community shows in Afghanistan, it would support Afghan women, but it ignores the position of women, who form 60% of the population. International agencies did not give women a chance to be involved in the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan.
Women suffer many problems in Afghanistan, especially violence. If a woman is at risk from violence even those at senior level in Government sit back and say it is a family issue. Women's issues are regarded as family issues and women have no individual rights. A woman is the property of the family, especially of the men. Women are second-class citizens in Afghanistan. Some women want to work for Afghanistan but there is no opportunity to do so. Therefore, I appreciate the committee providing me with the opportunity to make a presentation to it. At all levels in society, the women of Afghanistan need moral and financial support.
I note members have a high level of education. For the reconstruction of Afghanistan, the opportunity must be available for men and women to avail of education. They must be educated on human rights and, specifically, women's rights. Women must be given the opportunity to take an active part in the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan.
Many resources are available for Afghanistan but they are only for the short term. There is no long-term commitment for the country. If we approach the Afghan Government for resources, it claims it is busy with the war. Some 80% of supports from the international community go to military assistance while the remaining 20% go to civil society and its reconstruction. How is it possible for men and women to have access to education with this allocation? Even our men do not have access to education.
At a recent conference, I emphasised that we are fed up of war. Thirty years is a long time and we have lost everything. We expect all countries, especially development countries, not to ignore Afghanistan. We need international support at different steps to provide us with good education to build the people's capacity. Those who wish to help in the reconstruction of Afghanistan do not have the opportunity to do so.
How can the Irish Government help in the reconstruction? I may be wrong in that it has good relations with our Government. Ireland has much experience that can help bring about positive changes in Afghanistan. I also told the representatives of NATO and the European Commission that we need their support in development at different levels. We need to learn from Ireland how to provide for civil society, encourage women to work for Afghanistan and encourage our people in learning about human and women's rights.
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Dr. Henry: I welcome the delegation. I know Mr. O'Malley for years and I support what his organisation tries to do for Afghanistan. To hear Ms Akrami is incredible. She is an incredibly brave woman. That bravery is physical because in Afghanistan many dreadful things happened to women who tried to help other women. I am extremely depressed to hear what she stated about women in parliament having so little status. When democracy was promoted, a great scene was made by the forces in power about women having special seats. It is extremely disappointing if they are token positions.
I am also greatly upset because over the decades I have known women from Afghanistan who were doctors. They were graduates of Kabul University. What happened there? Is it finished? I met two doctors, a husband and wife, who had to flee Afghanistan years ago. Mr. O'Malley possibly knows them too. When the Taliban took power and stated women couldn't work the woman had a complicated case in the hospital. Her husband worked with the Red Crescent. She thought the rule did not include people like her but her husband told her he thought it did. He gave her a lift to the hospital where, as he turned the car, he saw her come out pursued by two men with whips. I do not know what happened to her patient but she and her husband eventually fled the country and came here.
It is dreadful to think that 15 years ago people with good third-level education dealt with women's health issues in Afghanistan and now we have this dreadful situation. I am a doctor as well as a Senator. The health figures provided by the delegation are extremely bad. The fertility rate must be one of the highest in the world. Maternity mortality rates are not listed but I remember from the UNFPA reports the rate is approximately 200 per 100,000 live births which is shocking. It is one of the worst rates in the world. Regarding health, Ireland supports the United Nations Population Fund, the UNFPA and UNICEF. I do not know how great a presence it has in Afghanistan. Those with a certain degree of training in nursing and medicine could be assisted here. We accept students at postgraduate level and could assist in this way. It is a good suggestion that psychologists could help those who were the subject of violence.
The delegation makes a very important point in stating that cultural norms are taken as part of religious teachings. This is a serious matter in Afghanistan because cultural norms are constantly put forward as reasons for certain behaviour. Having read the Koran years ago, I referred to it again recently on women's dress. Apart from being told to cover one's bosom and wear distinctive clothes, it does not mention dressing the way women are obliged to dress now. The role of the family is important in women's lives and I do not know how anyone from outside Afghanistan can deal with this. If the delegation has any suggestions on this matter, we will consider them.
I am delighted the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre will assist. I was chair of the fundraising committee there for many years and if the centre promises help, one can be certain that it will be provided. Training people here would be much better than sending people to Afghanistan for three weeks, which is not satisfactory if they have to rely on interpreters.
It is worth pursuing the point raised about the World Bank. The Nobel laureate, Mr. Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh, did much work on microeconomics, which is mainly addressed to women. Mr. Paul Wolfowitz is not one of my friends, although I have met him. It is worthwhile contacting the World Bank. I am a member of an organisation of world parliamentarians, which keeps an eye on the World Bank. We could ask this group to address gender-proofing.
Deputy M. Higgins: Mr. Wolfowitz has moved the World Bank to the right wing. He has US marines outside his office.
Dr. Henry: He has. He must have protection because of the way he is behaving at present. This is an area where we could do something practical for the delegation. The delegation can see that it is pushing an open door. Women in Ireland would like to help the delegation. To come from outside to help a culture such as that in Afghanistan is often not productive. We have read of cases taken under Sharia law and this concerns us. I have visited Turkey, where violence against women and honour killing is a serious problem even though Turkey has been a secular state for so long. We do not under estimate the problems. The courage of the delegation is remarkable and we pray for the safety of its members. Afghanistan is a dangerous country at present.
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Ms Akrami: It gives me great encouragement to be here and realise that the members have all this good feeling for Afghanistan and its people. The Chairman mentioned the support of organisations such as the World Bank. While I appreciate their support, their main focus is Kabul. They have forgotten that even in Kabul women do not have the right to benefit from the centres. Time is pressing. The World Bank project provides good opportunities for women. Although I attended many workshops and seminars, unfortunately I have not seen any women from rural areas there. The focus is on Kabul.
While many people and organisations are concerned for Afghanistan, their work is short term. There is no long-term commitment to Afghanistan. It is difficult for a women from an NGO to make contact and get access to international NGOs. In all my work I was supported by my family and friends. Only after four years was I made a partner of one international NGO that already had 13 men's organisations as members. My organisation was the lucky one women's organisation that became a partner. There are no opportunities for women's organisations to have contact with the international community. I know about Rasan, and that money for women's affairs comes through governments and through different channels of civil society. Very little money comes to women's organisations and there is little we can do with it. Some Afghan women are committed to take action but there are no opportunities for them to do so.
It is a pleasure for me to come here and talk and I appreciate that Ms O'Malley Dunlop says she will visit Afghanistan. We need moral support even more than financial. If an Afghan woman does something, everybody is against it, even sometimes authorised people in parliament. They give women no chance. However women still struggle, as I do. I began with nothing. I did not give details before or talk about my presentation because I already distributed it to the members. I just wanted to make some practical comments about the fact that this is still happening. Some 50 or 60 years ago it was happening in Afghanistan but it is sad for Afghan people to see many resources come to Afghanistan, but that there is no effective, high-level evaluation and monitoring system.
I appreciate that the Irish Government gives €30 million or more, but unfortunately I am not sure that there is a good evaluation or monitoring system to see that the money goes to the people of Afghanistan. It is also too difficult for me to share orders, as I have built up a good relationship with the government owing to some serious cases that we have in the shelter. Such women have no future except death, and I therefore built up a literacy project to foster good relations with the Government. I do not wish to be negative, but the situation is totally different from that in other countries, with which we cannot compare Afghanistan. It is not like Iraq or other post-conflict or underdeveloped countries.
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The joint committee went into private session at 4.55 p.m. and adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 7 November 2006.
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