21st March, 2002
Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister and the Bill, but, like Senator Coghlan, one has to have reservations about whether it will speed up the process under which we operate. The Minister has made a huge effort to push forward new technology in her Department. That is the reason I am quite sure the aim of the Bill in changing from one regulator to a commission is to speed up the process, particularly in regard to the introduction of the broadband network. However, I wonder whether it will do so. Like Senator Coghlan, I wonder whether it will be slowed down and taken over given that the Minister for Finance is so heavily involved. Perhaps, if he is well occupied in the other House, we may be able do something with the Bill on Committee Stage to remove his heavy hand from various sections.
The Minister for Finance seems to have a more powerful role in every part of the public service. I do not know if the Minister, the Cathaoirleach or other Senators noticed two letters published in The Irish Times last week relating to the Freedom of Information Act as it affects the Department of Health and Children. Since the Government took office - I know Senator Liam Fitzgerald has his views on hospital consultants - we have been trying to work towards a consultant provided service, or so we thought. I was a member of Comhairle na n-Ospidéal when we brought this forward. We were appointing more consultants and trying to cut back on the number of non-consultant hospital doctors. The next thing we see is a letter in the newspaper dated early January from the Department of Finance stating a consultant provided service is not necessarily the way we will go. There was an anguished reply from the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children. The Department of Finance and, I presume, the Minister seem to be stepping in when other Departments are trying to make progress. The manpower task force has been proceeding on the basis that there will be a consultant provided service. Comhairle na n-Ospidéal has been doing the same. I can see the same thing happening in this case.
As the Minister said, the commission is to be independent. I was delighted she gave such praise to the regulator, Ms Etain Doyle, who has done a tremendous job with good humour, especially since she has had her own problems with the Department of Finance. The Minister may remember a big fight last year when the issuing of one licence was considerably slowed down.
Mrs. O'Rourke: 3D.
Dr. Henry: The Minister for Finance, as far as I can remember, wanted a high minimum fee while the regulator wanted to make sure there was coverage throughout the country. The process was delayed by about one year until they reached a settlement. This may happen more frequently in the case of this legislation.
The commission will be independent because it will raise its own money. I notice it can provide for borrowings for which the Minister will have to give permission, but it is the Minister for Finance who will have his hand around the Minister's neck in giving the permission. Did the regulator ever borrow from the Minister? I have no idea about this. Was the regulator able to sustain her department with her own levies? Why will the commission not be able to do this rather than have situations such as that outlined in section 13 which deals with directions of the Minister? As Senator Coghlan said, the Minister appears to be able to give all the directions apart from awarding individual licences.
It worries me enormously that section 13(4)(b) states: "...the means by which entitlements to use such spectrum may be assigned (including appropriate fees), and in giving such direction the Minister shall have regard to principles of good frequency management." That is fair enough, but the next subsection states: " A direction under subsection (1) relating to fees referred to in subsection (4)(b) may only be given with the consent of the Minister for Finance." In other words, the Minister for Finance will control competitions. That is not good. We should, therefore, remove the subsection in question because the Minister for Finance will control competitions, not the commission, as a result of which it will not be independent.
It is quite bizarre that the commission will have its own money and pay its staff, but section 20(3)(a) states that the Minister and the Minister for Finance shall determine the number, grading, remuneration and other conditions of service of staff to be appointed by the office of the commission. That should be taken out of the Bill. It is only numbers at the moment, but it will not do. The commission might decide it wants six very senior people and no one else. It might decide it wants two very senior people and half a dozen consultants. Control of that cannot be left with the Minister for Finance. If that is the case, how could one consider the commission independent? We can change this - I am sure the Minister for Finance will never find out. Does the Minister think he has spies here?
Mrs. O'Rourke: I am afraid they have just looked in this very minute.
Dr. Henry: We are speaking to a very discreet audience.
Mrs. O'Rourke: They have spies all the time.
Dr. Henry: I am sure the schoolchildren who have joined us in the Gallery will not tell the Minister a word.
We must show some common sense. I note the Minister will appoint three people to the commission. Some of the other commissions to which three members were appointed, such as those dealing with aviation and electricity, are still functioning with only one. I do not see why extra people should be appointed unless they are necessary. I do not think extra people should be appointed just for the sake of it. It could lead to bad feeling if there are only two commissioners and the chairperson has the casting vote.
The Minister mentioned the postal services and they are extraordinarily important. I would like to hear something about efficiency. There is nothing in the Bill about the postal services having to be efficient. That is extremely important. I like the public service element of this Bill and it is important that the public service in the postal services is well looked after. I am sure they will not hear a word I say, but our postal service is not too bad. I do not want them to find that out. Neither do I want anyone from Iarnród Éireann to travel on South West Trains in England because they would come back and tell us that we have a marvellous service. We should keep a discreet silence on some of these things. It is important to emphasise efficiency in the postal service.
Like Senator Coghlan, I wonder why matters have to go to the DPP. Could the commission not be in a position to pursue these things themselves? The DPP will be dealing with appalling cases such as murders and rapes and will have to give priority to such cases above fining various telecommunications networks. Can that be changed? Surely the Minister for Finance would not mind that; he might even give us a bit of leeway.
I agree with Senator Coghlan's point about the staff and the commission having to declare pecuniary benefits. Would it not be better if they were excluded from having shares in any companies with which they deal? We have run into a great deal of trouble in recent years with people who are involved in running trials for pharmaceutical companies. At one stage they were allowed to have only a very small shareholding in those companies. In America the size of the allowable shareholding has been increased. Last year the very reputable New England Journal of Medicine said it was now almost impossible to find people who were sufficiently disassociated from pharmaceutical companies to overview such trials. Conflict of interest has become a serious matter in many spheres. It is a matter that we should consider again.
The Minister is trying to forward the implementation of broadband. Senator Coghlan explained the unbundling of the local loop so well that I will not go through it again.
Mr. Coghlan: Thank you.
Mrs. O'Rourke: It is one of the seven mysteries of the world.
Dr. Henry: Maybe it is like the third secret of Fatima. However, we have been very slow to do it. Senator Fitzgerald said there are not many countries from which we can take an example, but several people have raised it with me over some time.
Some areas were excluded from the Bill and maybe we should try to include them. One of those is a flat access rate to the Internet. Fortunately, my children are old enough to pay for themselves when they use the Internet, but this is a matter in which the mothers of Ireland have a great interest. Can we tackle this now? Is there some reason for excluding that from the Bill? It is a very important issue.
I was contacted about mobile telephone number portability. While it is not such a difficulty for private users, it apparently causes many problems for business users. If they transfer to another mobile telephone company, they can only retain the latter part of their number. Naturally we do not want anything that impedes business. This causes more problems for small businesses than large businesses. Perhaps it is an issue that could be addressed. I also wish to raise the matter of operators who rent large sections of a mobile network and then go out of business. That seems to be quite a problem and it is not addressed in the Bill.
I welcome the Minister's efforts in this very challenging area. I agree with Senator Fitzgerald that we do not have much legislation from other EU countries to consider. On the other hand, there is no reason that we should not forge the way. We have done a great deal of work with information technology in Ireland.
Perhaps the Minister will take notice of the problem of spam e-mail. I have raised this before but no one seems to take any notice of it. Unsolicited and repulsive messages are becoming increasingly common. The heads of the department of computer science and data protection at Trinity College have contacted me about this matter. It must be a really serious problem for them to have contacted me. They would not have done so if it was a frivolous issue. I do not think the Department of Public Enterprise decided that people would have to opt out of getting such e-mails.
Mrs. O'Rourke: It was with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and it had a distinct view on it.
Dr. Henry: I know it held a point of view but I did not agree with it. It would be much better if one had to opt in to such e-mails. This problem is causing great annoyance. The Minister may have to take a tough line with a Minister other than the Minister for Finance. I am sure we will be able to aid the Minister in removing some of the Minister for Finance's influence on Committee Stage. I congratulate the Minister on bringing this Bill before the House.
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