Mr. Costello: What
the Minister is proposing here does not undermine the principle of the allocation of up to
20% for social and affordable housing, which is welcome, but is giving the option to the
developer of building or making some other agreement rather than transferring the land. My only concern is that while the site will be taken at
its pre-zoned, normal cost, the builder will have his profits after the cost of labour and
materials. That seems to suggest the builder will be fully in the marketplace in regard to
the premises he constructs. Profits on residential developments, particularly in Dublin,
are exorbitant and do not relate to the actual costs of labour and materials. The
marketplace is artificial in that respect.
I am concerned that we will move away from
social and affordable housing because, while the cost of the site will be anchored down
and will not be the market price, which is welcome, the enormous cost of the house will
not be very different. While the builder can subtract the site cost of £10,000, £15,000
or £20,000, it seems the profits on the sales in the current artificial market will
militate greatly against any house returning to the local authority, a voluntary body
which requested it or an individual on the register of those qualifying for a local
authority house. The situation will be very difficult.
I would like a better formula. Rather than using
the full profits in the marketplace, there should be an agreement, as existed in the past,
whereby the building and labour costs would be taken into consideration and a reasonable
mark-up price would be set, giving a 10% or 15% profit. That would prevent inflated prices
for houses which are being built for the benefit of the local authority.
Mr. Dempsey: I thank Senator Costello for
his support of this amendment, which is very important. He has made several statements
about the necessity to put these social and affordable housing provisions into effect as
quickly as possible.
I take the point he made about profits. The
easiest answer I can give is that if a builder wants to include an exorbitant profit in
the price of the houses that will become available under this agreement, the local
authority can tell him they are not affordable houses as far as it is concerned, there is
no agreement and that he has to hand over 10%, 15% or 20% of the land. That is the only
safeguard the local authorities have because they are not obliged to let the developer
build - they have the call in that regard.
I know there was some confusion about this, but
if the land is signed over to the local authority and it arranges to build itself, the
tender price includes profit. In essence, what is being cut out is the need to transfer
the land. However, I take the point. The only straightforward answer I can give is that if
the builder gets too greedy, which is not beyond the bounds of possibility in that
profession, the local authority can say the houses are not affordable and that the
objective is not being achieved. It can tell the developer to sign over the land and build
the houses itself or to get another builder to do so. That is the safeguard.
Many builders will value the opportunity to
build the houses themselves, to have only one builder on the site and to be able to
integrate the social or affordable housing on their own site rather than the local
authority coming in to do so. This is a significant incentive for them not to try to
extract the huge profits they are obviously extracting otherwise. The safeguard is
reasonably good and this has the extra benefit of producing the houses perhaps quicker
than if we had to go through the Land Registry, transferring land and so on.
Mr. Walsh: How will the portion of land to
be dedicated to the local authority be determined if this route is followed? Sites will
vary and some parcels of a landbank can be more difficult and costly to develop. Will the
discretion rest with the local authority or the developer? This is an important point.
The Minister stated that houses would be
transferred at the site cost which would have been the cost pertaining to the local
authority which are agricultural prices, and then the full market value. I have
difficulties in this regard and perhaps the Minister would clarify whether the price will
be fixed. Gazumping is taking place because demand is outstripping supply and house prices
are going up by £10,000 or £15,000 within a few months. There is also a tendency for
builders to let houses go at a lower price initially. I have difficulty with this proposal
if the full market value is to be used. I support free market principles and market forces
tend to regulate matters properly. However, there is a social aspect to housing and
interventionist approaches are required in the current climate.
Would the Minister consider reintroducing the
certificate of reasonable value to control the price of houses? Certificates applied in
the 1970s when house prices were fairly depressed. In the application of this measure, and
it might be included in the guidelines, I hope that local authorities would apply the
current market price they are paying for the development of similar size houses within
their own jurisdiction rather than leaving it to the market value. That would help to keep
prices down.
Within the guidelines, housing co-operatives
should be used and established as a conduit for the application of the principles
involved. This goes to the core of this provision and much of what we are trying to do
about the housing situation. This is an extremely welcome and well constructed
development. My comments are geared towards the detail rather than the principle, which is
first class.
Ms Ormonde: Senator Walsh made many of the
points I wished to make. I welcome the concept of the developer building and this will
give an integrated look to new schemes. We have had experience of voluntary housing
associations in south Dublin where there are many fine housing schemes in Clondalkin built
on land reclaimed by the corporation. In Saggart the community council and local people
are in discussions with developers as to how they can obtain affordable houses. This
scheme is working well in conjunction with the local authority.
One could highlight negative points about any
legislation but I do not want to go down that road. However, if we stipulate that one in
every ten houses in an integrated scheme would be affordable, would this lend itself to
shoddy workmanship in order to keep the cost of the house down? Would a situation arise
where one house would have three bathrooms while the house next door had only one? This is
a fact of life. I am trying to think this through and we are going to be asked this
question. What are the Minister's views on this issue? I have no difficulty with, and have
always believed in, the village concept. However, some people will ask why they have only
one bathroom while a neighbour has three.
Mr. J. Doyle: On Second Stage I proposed
that builders be given an opportunity of building for local authorities, and I am glad the
Minister has introduced this amendment. The Minister has clarified that the local
authority will have the final call if it is not satisfied with the price being charged by
the builder. In such situations local authorities can build the houses themselves.
During the 1970s and 1980s, when inflation was
high, local authorities encouraged small builders and gave them sites to build social and
affordable housing. The concept of social and affordable housing goes back to that time.
Local authorities designated small areas and produced houses at well below the normal
price which were used to house people on lower incomes. I welcome the principle of social
housing but we are only continuing a principle which was adopted years ago.
Mr. McDonagh: I welcome the ideals and
concept enshrined in this section. I am sure that local authorities will make a good case
for builders as they have much expertise and experience. However, if the builder is
restricted within the 20% concept and his profits are small, is there a danger that the
price of houses in the other 80% would increase to make up the shortfall? People involved
in the building sector have highlighted this danger. I hope this will not happen as local
authorities have been generous to builders over the years, particularly in bad times. I
hope we will not see an increase in the price of private sector housing as a result of the
restrictions placed on builders due to the 20% concept, which is welcome.
Mr. Costello: There is no doubt that the
construction federation will cry wolf. Some of its submissions on Dublin Corporation's
development plan specifically requested that any reference to any social agenda be
excluded as that was not the purpose of a development plan. They will try to raise as many
fears as possible about the cost of other housing.
The Minister stated that the safeguard is that
the local authorities can say no thank you to developers if they impose an exorbitant
rate. The Minister has made this proposal which gives the welcome option of transfer or
allowing the developer to build. It is likely that most local authorities will choose the
latter because it is a simpler than bringing in a new contractor. All local authorities
seek tenders from contractors nowadays. There would be little point bringing in a second
developer or builder when there is a builder with the planning permission on site already.
It will cut costs in the long term not to split a project 80-20 between two contractors.
It would also be more desirable to have one builder build an entire project. I would
imagine that the vast majority of developments will be done in that way.
My concern remains about amendment No. 254n,
the proposed (a)(ii)(II) which refers to "the building and attributable
development costs as agreed between the authority and the developer, including profit on
the costs,". The first part of this provision refers to the building and development
costs "as agreed between the authority and the developer" and it is a safeguard.
However, the phrase "including profit on the costs" seems rather stark. Profit
on the costs to the developer means the market profits. Unless we constrain that in the
legislation then that will be interpretation. It will be difficult for the local authority
and the builder to decide in advance the exact amount of profit because the market changes
so much and building is generally not completed within a period of six months.
We need to insert a provision on the lines of
what Senator Walsh and others have said. He said that we should go back to the concept of
a certificate of reasonable value which would be determined on the basis of examining the
costs of labour and materials and adding a mark up on that. That was the old way of doing
it.
Perhaps the Minister would examine this section
again. Unless there is an agreement on the profit on the costs builders will argue
strongly about them after projects have been completed. What happens if there is a
disagreement about costs between the local authority and the builder after the
construction has taken place? We must get a formula that will reflect a reasonable profit
on the costs.
Mr. Dempsey: If Members look at the detail
of this section again, most of the valid points and concerns expressed by Members are
covered in it.
With regard to price, Senator Ormonde's point
about the danger of shoddy work on houses designated as social and affordable housing and
Senator Costello's point, it is specified in this Bill that the agreement will be for a
certain number of houses of a certain description at a stated price. When the agreement is
signed the price, the type of house and all the details are fixed. As in a local authority
housing scheme, even though the builder may say he is finished, the council will send a
clerk of works or an engineer to check that building is up to standard before the houses
are taken over by the local authority. There are safeguards in this.
The price and description must be in the
agreement. I think I dealt with the issue of profit. If a builder is looking for
exorbitant profits it will mean his houses are not affordable. Therefore, the local
authority will have to say to the builder that it will take the land instead and build
affordable houses. That is the safeguard. It addresses the questions raised about people
being gazumped, full market values and current prices. As Members know, local authorities
have their own housing schemes and deal with builders on a regular basis. Therefore, they
have a good idea - a better idea than most people - about the going rate for housing in a
particular area. If a builder tries to get up on the local authority's back, so to speak,
under this scheme it has the option to say that it cannot reach an agreement on the
project, that the builder is looking for too high a profit and that the houses are not
affordable, and it can take the land. This section adequately deals with the points
raised.
With regard to Senator McDonagh's point about
passing on costs, the same point arises. If the local authority is involved in this
business it will have a good idea of prices. There is no need for builders to increase the
price of houses and take the level of profits that they are taking at present. I discussed
this last week on a number of radio programmes. The other planning changes we have made,
particularly the changes in densities, will more than adequately compensate builders. I
have not noticed, unfortunately, that the price of new houses has been reduced in any of
the new areas or any areas where increased densities have been granted.
Despite what builders have said, and while it
may not be widespread yet and they may not have reached sites where the increased
densities have been given, increased densities are being granted. Last week I gave an
example that up to the change in densities one would get, on average, 10 houses per acre
on 100 acres, taking into account differences between city and county areas. The increased
density guidelines offers about a 33% to 40% increased density on a site. Therefore, on a
site where there could have been 1,000 houses at 10 per acre, with the increased density a
builder can now build 1,120 houses on 80 acres - that takes the 20% into account. That is
sufficient compensation for builders. There is no reason for them to increase house
prices.
Last week builders made an attempt to frighten
the public and to influence the debate that was taking place in this House, saying there
would a 24% increase in house prices as a result of this Bill. There is no need for such
an increase. It should not happen. House prices should be stabilised or even fall slightly
in new housing estates. There is nothing in this Bill that will increase house prices. It
is only the greed of builders that will increase house prices.
Mr. Cassidy: Hear, hear.
Mr. Dardis: There is a related point
which arises later under another amendment. It would speed matters up if we could deal
with it now. Otherwise we will be rehearsing the same arguments again. It relates to
section 82(8), that would become a section 82(9) if we adopted the later amendment, and
the option for the local authority where the site is not suitable to get he amount equal
to the market value. The matter was raised by Senator Walsh. The critical term
"market value" was not in the original Bill but it is included in the amendment.
I have a vested interest in this matter because I have zoned land, as I have stated
before. How is the market value to be established? Will it be established in the same way
as in the case of motorway acquisitions? Perhaps the Minister would prefer to wait until
we get to the amendment but I thought it would speed matters up.
Mr. Dempsey: It would be better to deal with
it in context.
Mr. Dardis: I wish to raise a matter which
was mentioned earlier and is referred to in this amendment. It relates to the density as
established by the local authority under the development plan and the density suggested by
the greater Dublin guidelines. As I understand it, the development plan density is the one
which operates. How can both positions be reconciled? There are situations where a local
authority, under its development plan and zoning, establishes a low density but the Dublin
guidelines suggest it should be higher.
Mr. Dempsey: All local authorities have been
asked to respect the new guidelines issued on density. Regional planning guidelines will
be given statutory effect when this Bill is enacted and local authorities will have to
have regard to those and implement them.
Mr. Dardis: Under the existing development
plans, would material contravention be required to change the density to that required by
the Dublin guidelines?
Mr. Dempsey: Yes, we are asking local
authorities to take them into account and alter their development plans to ensure they
comply with the regional planning guidelines and with the increased densities. If they do
not do that, An Bord Pleanála will take it into account. However, I would expect all
local authorities to comply.
Acting Chairman (Mr. Finneran): I wish to
make a correction before putting the amendment. There should be a full stop after
"costs" at the end of paragraph (iii)(II).
Amendment agreed to.
Acting Chairman: I call on the Leader of the
House to review progress.
Mr. Cassidy: On the Order of Business, I
said I would review progress at 1 p.m. I have had discussions with the Whips and it is
proposed to adjourn for lunch at the end of section 82 for 45 minutes.
Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed.
Government amendment No. 254o:
In page 88, subsection (3)(b), line 24,
to delete "a transfer" and
substitute "an agreement".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 254p:
In page 88, subsection (3)(b)(ii), line
30, to delete "and".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 254q:
In page 88, subsection (3)(b)(iii), line
32, to delete "relates." and
substitute "relates, and".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 254r:
In page 88, subsection (3), between lines 32 and
33, to insert
the following new subparagraph:
"(iv) the views of the applicant in
relation to the impact of
the agreement on the development.".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 254s:
In page 88, subsection (3), between lines 32 and
33, to insert the following new paragraph:
"(c) Government guidelines on public
procurement shall not apply to an agreement made under paragraph (a)(ii) or (iii),
except in the case of an agreement which is subject to the requirements of Council
Directive No. 93/37/EEC1 on the co-ordination of procedures relating to the award of
Public Works Contracts and any directive amending or replacing that directive.".
Mr. Dempsey: Paragraph (c) is being inserted
as a consequence of the new provision to allow the developer to provide houses or
development sites to the local authority and to ensure the position is not complicated by
the application of public procurement procedures under EU rules and regulations.
Amendment agreed to.
Acting Chairman: Amendment No. 254t
is a Government amendment. If this amendment is agreed, amendment No. 255 cannot be moved.
Amendment No. 255 is related. Amendments Nos. 254t and 255 can be taken together.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Government amendment No. 254t:
In page 88, lines 33 to 48, and in page 89,
lines 1 to 46, to delete subsections (4) to (10) and substitute the following new
subsections:
"(4) In the case of a dispute in relation
to any matter which may be the subject of an agreement under this section, other than---
(a) a dispute in relation to an agreement
under subsection (3)(a)(ii) or (iii),
(b) a dispute as to the amount of
compensation payable under subsection (5),
or
(c) a dispute as to the sum payable to a
planning authority under subsection (10),
the matter may be referred by the planning
authority or any other prospective party to the agreement to the Board for determination.
(5) Where ownership of land is transferred to a
planning authority in accordance with subsection (3)(a)(i), the planning authority
shall by way of compensation pay to the owner of the land the greater of---
(a) an amount, representing the value of
the land based on the existing use of that land calculated on the assumption that it was
at that time and would remain unlawful to carry out any development in relation to the
land other than exempted development, or
(b) where the land was purchased, or a
legally enforceable agreement or option to purchase was secured, by the applicant for
permission before 25 August 1999, the actual price paid or amount agreed to be paid under
the option (and interest charges that have been incurred).
(6) (a) Subject to paragraph (b),
a property arbitrator, nominated under the Property Values (Arbitration and Appeals) Act,
1960, under and in accordance with the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation)
Act, 1919 shall, in default of agreement, fix the following where appropriate:
(i) the number and price of houses to be
transferred under subsection (3)(a)(ii),
(ii) the number and price of sites to be
transferred under subsection (3)(a)(iii);
(iii) the compensation payable under subsection
(5) by a planning authority to the owner of land;
(iv) the sum payable to a planning authority
under subsection (10).
(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a),
section 2 (2) of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, shall not
apply and the value of the land shall be calculated on the assumption that it was at that
time and would remain unlawful to carry out any development in relation to the land other
than exempted development.
(c) Section 171 shall apply to
compensation payable under subsection (5).
(7) (a) Where ownership of land or sites
is transferred to a planning authority in accordance with subsection (3)(a)(i) or (iii),
the authority may-
(i) provide, or arrange for the provision of,
houses on the land or sites for persons referred to in section 80(4)(a),
(ii) make land or sites available to those
persons for the development of houses by them for their own occupation, or
(iii) make land or sites available to a body
approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act,
1992, for the provision of houses on the land for persons referred to in section
80(4)(a).
(b) Pending the provision of houses or
sites in accordance with paragraph (a)(i), or the making available of land or sites
in accordance with paragraph (a)(ii) or (iii), the planning authority shall
maintain the land or sites in a manner which does not detract, and is not likely to
detract, to a material degree from the amenity, character or appearance of land or houses
in the neighbourhood of the land or sites.
(8) (a) Where a house is transferred to a
planning authority or its nominees under subsection (3)(a)(ii), it shall be used
for the housing of persons to whom section 80(4)(a) applies.
(b) A nominee of a planning authority may
be a person referred to in section 80(4)(a) or a body approved for the purposes of
section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1992, for the provision of
housing for persons referred to in section 80(4)(a).
(9) Notwithstanding any provision of this or any
other enactment, if a planning authority becomes satisfied that land, a site or a house
transferred to it under subsection (3) is no longer required for the purposes
specified in subsection (7) or (8), it may use the land, site or house for
another purpose connected with its functions or sell it for the best price reasonably
obtainable and, in either case, it shall pay an amount equal to the market value of the
land, site or house or the proceeds of the sale, as the case may be, into the separate
account referred to in subsection (11).
(10) (a) Where for reasons of the size,
shape or other attribute of the site, the planning authority, or the Board on appeal,
considers that an agreement under subsection (3) is not practical, the planning
authority, or the Board on appeal, may as a condition of a grant of permission in
accordance with section 34 require the payment to the planning authority of an
amount equivalent in value to a transfer of land to the authority under paragraph (a)
of subsection (3).
(b) The condition specified in
paragraph (a) shall provide that the sum shall be agreed between the planning
authority and the person to whom the permission is granted and that in default of
agreement the sum shall be fixed by a property arbitrator in accordance with subsection
(6).
(11) Any amount referred to in subsection (9)
and any amount paid to a planning authority in accordance with subsection (10)
shall be accounted for in a separate account and shall only be applied as capital for its
functions under this Part or by a housing authority for its functions in relation to the
provision of housing under the Housing Acts, 1966 to 1998.
(12) This section shall not apply to
applications for permission for---
(a) development consisting of the
provision of 5 or fewer houses,
(b) development for housing on land of
0.2 hectare or less,
(c) the conversion of an existing
building or the reconstruction of a building to create one or more dwellings, provided
that 50 per cent or more of the existing external fabric of the building is retained, or
(d) the carrying out of works to an
existing house.
(13) A permission granted under Part IV of the
Act of 1963 or under Part III of this Act pursuant to an application made after 25
August 1999 and to which this Part would have applied if the application for permission
had been made after the inclusion of a housing strategy in the development plan under section
80(1), shall cease to have effect on 31 December 2002 or on the expiry of a period of
2 years from the date of the grant of permission whichever is the later, as regards----
(a) where the development to which the
permission relates is not commenced by that date or the expiry of that period, the entire
development, and
(b) where the development to which the
permission relates is commenced by that date or the expiry of that period, any portion of
the development consisting of buildings for which the foundations have not been completed,
but without prejudice to the obligation on the person carrying out the development to
fulfil the other requirements of the permission in relation to so much of the development
as is not affected by this paragraph.".
Mr. Dempsey: These amendments cover a fair
amount of ground and I will try to get through them as quickly as possible. The only
substantive change to section 82 relates to the resolution of disputes and is
consequential on the additional options now introduced in subsection (3). The other
changes are designed to improve the drafting.
Any dispute that might arise in regard to the
amount of compensation, such as for land transferred to the local authority and/or
affordable housing, is a matter for an official arbitrator. Any other dispute would be
referred to An Bord Pleanála for resolution, as we discussed earlier. It is only the
local authority, developer or landowner who may refer such disputes to An Bord Pleanála,
which we also discussed previously.
Section 82 (5) provides that where land is
transferred to a planning authority in accordance with subsection (3), the compensation to
be paid is to be based on the existing use of land or, where the land was bought before
the date of the publication of the Bill, the price actually paid, whichever is the
greater. The amendment to subsection (5) is to clarify the definition of "existing
use value". The definition now proposed is the same as that in the Taxes
Consolidation Act, 1997. It is important that this Bill is in line with that. There is no
policy change - it makes it clear based on precedence.
In subsection (5)(b), the words
"legally enforceable agreement or" are inserted before "option" for
reasons of clarity. The only substantive changes to subsection 6 are consequential on the
additional options in subsection (3) which we discussed. The amendments to subsection (7)
are largely technical. The subsection sets out the use to which planning authorities can
put any land transferred to them under this section. A new paragraph (b) is being
introduced to subsection (7) which will place an obligation on the local authority to
ensure the lands or sites transferred to them under this section are maintained in a
proper condition and in a state that does not adversely affect other houses or lands in
the neighbourhood. That was included as a result of observations we received.
Subsection (8) is a new subsection which is also
consequential on the additional options introduced in subsection (3). It specifies that
any houses made available under the second option must be used for the provision of social
or affordable housing for persons eligible for such housing. However, the houses do not
have to be transferred to the local authority. An alternative arrangement involving the
transfer to an approved voluntary housing body will meet the requirements, provided the
houses are made available to eligible persons.
Subsection (9) is also a new provision and makes
it clear that if a local authority is in possession of land or houses as a result of the
operation of this section and due to a fall off in the demand for social or affordable
housing in a particular area such housing is no longer required, it may divert the land to
other purposes connected with its functions, for example, as a community facility, library
etc. and sell it, or houses, on the market. However, there is an important requirement to
keep faith with the purposes of section 82 - where the land is diverted to another use,
the money must go into a separate account to be expended on social and affordable housing.
Similarly, if land or houses are sold, the proceeds must be treated in the same way.
Subsection (10) provides that instead of a transfer of land, where it is not practical
because of the size of the site, the planning authority may require payment of an amount
of equivalent value. The first amendment clarifies the section and substitutes an amount
for "a sum equivalent in value".
The Labour Party amendment No. 255 is an
alternative wording. The meaning of the subsection with my proposed amendment is
sufficiently clear and, therefore, the Labour Partyamendment is unnecessary. The same
principle is conceded in this amendment. My second amendment to subsection (10) provides
that where the planning authority and the person granted planning permission cannot agree
the sum to be paid, the matter shall be determined by the property arbitrator rather than
An Bord Pleanála. A dispute in relation to the amount to be paid would be more
appropriate to the expertise of a property arbitrator.
The purpose of the amendments to subsection (11)
is to bring the wording into line with other amendments to this subsection. The amendments
to subsection (12) raise the exemption threshold. The original text provided that the
provisions of this part of the Bill would apply to all developments in excess of two
dwellings on 0.2 of a hectare. That is being changed to five units. This could be applied
more easily having regard to the maximum quota of 20%. The level of the threshold is now
balanced having regard to all the interests involved. I realise that the existence of a
threshold below which the requirements of this part do not apply creates a risk that
developers will try to use the exemption to avoid the requirements of the strategy perhaps
by breaking up sites. It is the obligation of Government to ensure that any loopholes are
closed off. I hope to introduce an anti-avoidance amendment on Report Stage to ensure this
measure is not abused. I have retained the threshold for housing development on 0.2
hectares or less of land. The exemption for reconstruction has been tidied up to ensure,
for example, that a major apartment development cannot be considered a conversion by
virtue of retaining a small portion of the walls of the old building.
Subsection (13) is a new subsection dealing with
time limits on planning permission. The amendment provides that planning permissions
granted for residential developments on applications made after the publication of this
Bill and before the incorporation of a housing strategy into the development plan will
wither at the end of 2002 or two years after the grant of permission whichever is the
later for houses not commenced by then. This would give builders a reasonable opportunity
to build out permissions obtained before the coming into force of housing strategies under
the Bill. It is desirable that all developments should be governed by the same rules as
soon as possible both in the interests of equity between developers and the implementation
of policies underlying this part. The permission will cease to exist in relation to so
much of the development as has not been commenced. Paragraph (b) provides that where part
of a development has commenced, the developer is bound by the conditions of the planning
permission in so far as they relate to the development commenced. Thus, if three-quarters
of a development has commenced, a developer will be bound to complete the roads, open
spaces, etc., for that part of the development as set out in the planning permission.
This is a long amendment. The informal text,
which has been circulated and which highlights the amendments to the original text, should
be helpful to Senators. I believe the amendments strengthen and clarify the section,
thereby making it much more effective.
Mr. Coogan: Suppose the building strategy is
in place and by subterfuge a builder decides to stage his development by applying for
permission to build four houses at a given time - 20% of which would not be adequate to
provide a house - is there any way of ensuring this form of staged development will not
take place which would allow the builder to avoid providing the 20% required?
Mr. Costello: I was about to raise the same
issue as to whether a builder could make separate applications and thereby seek to defeat
the purpose of the legislation. The Minister has covered a range of issues, which I find
confusing. My amendment 255 proposes to deal with what I regard as a major omission in the
Bill where the developer can pay a sum of money rather than transferring 20% of the land.
It is not specified how this sum of money will be calculated. As the Minister seems to
have adequately dealt with this issue, I will withdraw my amendment.
Mr. Dardis: I am concerned about the issue
raised by Senator Costello. Is it correct to say that at the stage in the process when the
authority has the land, if it considers the size is not suitable, is it transferred at its
market value into an account?
Mr. Dempsey: Whatever they get for it.
Mr. Dardis: My point is that there may not
be a disposal. Is it the market value on the day or the market value when the land was
acquired which is applicable? This is a small technical but significant point. I
understand what the Minister is saying about the arbitrator. I assume that would work in
the same way as a motorway acquisition. In relation to Senator Coogan's point, could there
be sequential developments of an area lower than the specified area, thereby unwittingly
creating a loophole? I know the Minister intends introducing anti-avoidance measures and
this is obviously an area where such measures would be required.
Mr. Dempsey: If the land becomes surplus to
local authority requirements for housing purposes as a result of market changes, the local
authority will be in a position to use the land for community purposes and so on.
Therefore, cost does not arise. If the land is sold, the money must be lodged in a special
account. I appreciate that Senator Costello is withdrawing his amendment which is now
incorporated in my amendments.
There are no anti-avoidance measures outlined as
yet because we are still working on them. I assure the House that anti-avoidance measures
will be put in place to deal with the issues raised by Senators Coogan and Costello. My
understanding of staged development is that full planning permission is granted for 200 or
300 houses. Staged developments of three and four houses will not constitute a loophole in
the legislation. This will not be a method whereby developers can get round the provisions
laid down in the legislation. Careful consideration is being given to anti-avoidance
measures in order to close a variety of loopholes which it is anticipated could be
exploited. I assure Senators that these measures will be considered for Report Stage,
otherwise I will be back in this House after the Bill goes through the Dáil to ensure
anti-avoidance measures are put in place. I will be pleased to receive suggestions from
Members on Report Stage or later. There is no limit to the ingenuity of some people to
discover loopholes.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 255 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 82, as
amended, stand part of the Bill."
Mr. Coogan: I oppose sections 82, 83, 84,
85 and part of section 86. I wish to voice my objections to these sections now and I will
try not to repeat myself later.
Members on this side of the House are fully
supportive of the thrust of the Bill, namely, the concept of proper social integration. To
date we have tried to be helpful in terms of making proposals and suggestions, many of
which the Minister has either taken on board or placed under consideration for Report
Stage.
My concern, which I also voiced on Second Stage,
relates to the constitutionality of section 82. Under Article 43 of the Constitution,
there is a possibility that the section might be challenged. There is also a possibility
that it could be challenged on the grounds of discrimination rather than those of property
rights. My concerns in this regard have not been laid to rest.
The Minister has probably had long debates about
this matter with people who are more familiar than I with the legal niceties of the
situation. However, I have spoken to a number of people who believe that while builders
might be more satisfied with the position following the introduction of the Minister's
amendments, they may still decide to mount a challenge to the section. There are a number
of grounds on which they may do so. For example, 20% of the allocation decided upon in a
local authority's strategy plan may be given to one or two developers or builders. These
individuals will be quite satisfied with the position but the developers who were not
included may be disgruntled and they might decide to challenge the allocation on the basis
that it was inequitable.
There is another aspect of this matter which has
given rise to concerns. Senator Walsh referred to housing co-operatives and I accept that
these played an important role in the past. However, I had a discussion earlier today with
a member of a housing co-operative which obtained land from a local authority and
proceeded to develop it and he informed me that one of the houses built on that land was
being sold for £228,000. In other words, the local authority provided a site which has
increased in value to such a degree that the person to whom I spoke could become quite
wealthy if he decided to sell his house.
I have no intention of discussing housing
co-operatives in depth because one of the regulations governing their establishment stated
that if a house was built the owner could sell it immediately. I am not sure if that
regulation remains in force but it was in 1969 when I benefited from being a member of a
co-operative.
If a developer decides to build 100 houses, 80
units for normal sale and 20 for social housing, the rules and regulations state that each
house must meet the same standards of quality and I am sure every local authority will
ensure that such standards are met. In that context, let us consider the case of a person
with an income of £30,000 who decides that, with a good beneficiary mortgage and low
interest rates, he or she can afford to purchase a house worth £150,000. When they move
in they discover that the house next door is designated as socially affordable and it was
bought for £80,000 or £90,000 despite the fact that the owner's earnings are only
£2,000 to £3,000 less than theirs. That would not sit well with the person who paid the
full price who might ask why they should not reduce their income in order to qualify for
social housing. If they did so, they would become a net beneficiary in the future when,
after the agreed term, they would be entitled to sell the house. That is one of the
difficulties which arises in respect of this section.
Developers sometimes have a tendency to inflate
house prices and exaggerate the costs they incur. They have now threatened to increase the
price of houses built for normal sale in order to cover the cost of selling 20% of the
land on which they are developing back to local authorities at agricultural prices. While
they may not increase prices to the levels reported in the newspapers, etc., there is an
opportunity for them to do so.
For these reasons, particularly the question of
constitutionality and a number of others, I am concerned that the section will not work,
that the Bill might prove to be too convoluted and cumbersome and that it will not achieve
its aim. I suggest we adopt the proposals put forward by Senator Costello which are
simpler, easier to understand and less convoluted than those contained in the Bill.
On a radio programme last week, when asked why
local authorities sold their land banks, the Minister of State at the Department of
Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, replied that he did not know. To find an
answer he should cast his mind back to 1977 when, as a member of the then Government, he
abolished rates on houses, an action which resulted in local authorities finding
themselves strapped for cash. This was one of the major reasons they sold their land
banks. They often sold their land in order that community halls or other facilities could
be built, but the main reason was that they had no alternative source of funding. That is
why we have arrived at the current impasse.
I hope the provision succeeds but I fear it will
prove unworkable and unconstitutional.
Mr. Walsh: The provisions in section 82 are
quite radical. However, the mere fact that they have received a great deal of support in
the House is indicative of the need to tackle the problem of social inclusion in addition
to ensuring that the largest number of people possible can afford to buy houses. I share
some of Senator Coogan's concerns because a great deal of builders' and developers' money
is riding on the implementation of these provisions. These people are doing exceedingly
well at present and, apart from any pitfalls the section may contain, they may have been
advised to delay the implementation because doing so might prove beneficial. In my opinion
the Minister could introduce a number of measures which developers and others might
consider before embarking on such a course of action.
I suggested previously that, given the levels of
profit involved, it would not be beyond him to introduce a special levy on house building
and house sales. In that context, any property above a reasonable value would attract a
levy of 50%. A rising scale could then be used so that for every additional £10,000 on
the value of a property, the levy would increase incrementally to 90%. The money this
would yield could then be used as a fund to help local authorities tackle the problem of
social inclusion.
The construction industry is probably the
greatest beneficiary of our booming economy. I do not begrudge those involved in the
industry their success because for many decades they operated on very low margins.
However, housing does not only involve economic issues, it involves social and other
issues and it must be dealt with in a way which ensures that the public good, not the
interests of a particular segment of the commercial market, predominates. I hope people
will reflect before embarking on the type of challenge to which Senator Coogan referred.
I have no difficulty with people buying local
authority houses or participating in housing co-operatives and subsequently gaining reward
from being a beneficiary. Republicanism involves helping people to succeed in life and
providing them with equal opportunities. Where this happens, we should applaud it rather
than decry it. The more people we encourage to exercise their flair, imagination and
ambition, the more our country and economy will prosper.
Mr. Costello: We do not want this discussion
to develop into a Second Stage debate. However, we are discussing an important principle,
namely, whether this desirable and radical proposal is practical and whether it will prove
workable in both the long and short terms. It is extremely beneficial on two grounds.
First, it will provide a long-term solution to our housing needs and we will not
experience crises in the future. Ironically, the only local authority that will not
benefit from it very easily, as an individual local authority, is my local authority,
Dublin Corporation, because of the shortage of building land. We can only deal with that
in the greater Dublin context.
The second benefit, to which Senator Walsh
referred, is that it is a very useful instrument to tackle social exclusion. That is very
important especially now as we are developing into a very prosperous society because there
would be greater pressures to build up a two-tier society, which we have experienced in
the past. One can see the pressures currently. It is important that we can build it into
our legislative proposals so it is part of our policy on the development of this country.
This legislation would do more than many other policy measures that might be introduced to
effect that.
It will be argued that it might be
unconstitutional. Ironically, the Minister rejected my proposed amendments on
fast-tracking this measure on the grounds that his amendment was stronger on
constitutional safeguards and while my measure might be better when it comes to expedite
it, his might provide a better constitutional safeguard, with which I agree.
On alleged discrimination - there is
discrimination countrywide. Senator Coogan said that some local authorities will take the
full 20%, others will not need it. There is greater density in one local authority than in
another. As it stands, in terms of the way the building takes place and the density of the
building, one could argue that a builder in Dublin would get a much greater density. On
current height restrictions, currently applications for Smithfield involve 24 storeys, and
some received by the Docklands Development Authority involve 27 storeys. This is an area
of benefit to the builder due to the extra profits they are likely to make. Overall, this
is in the common good and the public interest. That is the overriding feature of the
Constitution and any challenge will reflect that. If that was not reflected in any
constitutional case taken, then let the Constitution be changed.
Mr. Dempsey: During this debate I have
acknowledged the support for Part V and various sections of it. I ask Senator Coogan to
reconsider his position on behalf of his party. With respect to the Senator, he cannot say
that he supports our aims in Part V and then remove the only means we have in this section
of attaining them. Section 2 is the linchpin of Part V. It provides a means of ensuring
the aspirations of the development plans and that the housing strategies are achieved.
Without section 82 we might as well scrap all of Part V. That is the effect of the
Senator's amendment. I ask him to reconsider. How can one deliver housing on affordable
terms to low or middle income households unless land costs are kept down? It is not
possible. Unless this is put in place, housing will remain unaffordable for many people
and prices will continue to increase because of exorbitant site prices and so on. Sites
are not the only cost involved but if we do not do this, it makes a joke of the whole
Bill.
We can talk about the rights of individuals and
society and the common good but we should never lose sight of the fact that a public body,
that is the local authority, makes millionaires of people overnight simply by drawing a
line on a map and rezoning a piece of property. That person, whether a developer or
landowner, is made very wealthy by the actions of the State, via the local
authorities. There must be some moral responsibility held by people who receive windfalls
from the State in that way to give something back. As the Senator knows, I am certain that
this is constitutional because it meets the criteria of being fair, proportional and
equitable but we will not decide that, the Supreme Court may decide it. I am advised that
it is constitutional and I am satisfied that it is. As Senator Costello said, if the
Supreme Court rules that the Constitution does not allow us as legislators to make
decisions here that are clearly for the common good, that everybody in this House and in
the country believes are right to ensure that people have a roof over their head, then I
agree with Senator Costello that there is something wrong with the Constitution and we
should do something about it, but this may not arise.
Senator Coogan mentioned Article 43 of the
Constitution. There are other sections in the Constitution, adjuncts to Article 43 being
one of them, which refer to the common good, and under the Constitution, the right to
property can be regulated by law. That is what we are doing. It is why Part V is so
detailed and complex, as the Senator said, but it is complex because we need to be seen to
be fair to everybody involved. We have a duty as legislators to provide for those who
cannot provide for themselves. We have a duty for social order, equity and so on, but this
must be balanced against the rights to private property. We have done that in this Bill. I
respect the support I have received and I ask Fine Gael not to call a division on this
issue. It would be a severe embarrassment to the party at a later stage if they are seen
to be opposing the only section that would provide the means by which social and
affordable housing can be provided. I ask them to consider that before they call a
division on this.
Mr. Coogan: The Minister has cited
Article 43.2.2 which relates to the common good. If there is to be a decision on the
question of constitutionality, it would be on Article 2.1 v. Article 2.2. However,
that is for another day and not for us. I only raise it in the context that it may be
challenged and as such we will not know where we stand on this Bill. There are a number of
things I wish to examine before Report Stage and that is why it is critical to tease this
out. I will set aside my opposition to sections 82, 83, 84, 85 and part of 86 and examine
it again on Report Stage. There are a number of minor issues outside the constitutionality
question which may cause a problem. I am willing to put them aside and examine them again
on Report Stage provided, of course, it is not taken immediately. We want to examine this
pivotal section, the most important aspect of the legislation. Much of the rest of the
Bill consolidates older legislation. I have a number of questions regarding the section
for Report Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 13.40 and resumed at
14.25.
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