Immigration Bill 2002 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil]: Report and Final Stages
Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister to the House and I thank him for his very clear explanation of the amendments before us. I am one of those who feels it would have been better if the Minister had rewritten the Bill - to see why, one needs only compare the size of the original Bill to the number of amendments. The House would have given the Minister the necessary time. We are very quick workers around here as the Leader has us on a very tight rein. We must leap along. The Minister says people must keep up with his pace which, I bet, we could have done.
I am irritated by the way these amendments have been brought before the House and I hope the Minister notes the dissatisfaction among Senators of the Government parties in this respect also. Over the last few weeks I have received a couple of lectures from the Minister and one from his Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, regarding the supremacy of Parliament. These lectures pertained to my proposal that remedies be provided before the courts for those whose social and economic rights are abused. The Minister and the Minister of State informed me that Parliament had to be supreme and that the courts could not be allowed to bring forward rights of that nature. The manner in which this Bill is being brought before the Seanad today is not respectful to the House and it fails to acknowledge the supremacy of Parliament.
We could easily have got through the Bill if the Minister felt it was urgent. I have no argument with a great deal of what is contained in the legislation and there is not a huge number of Senators interested in the question of immigration. Had he requested it, the Minister would have received co-operation from all sides to allow him to put the Bill through. Despite Senator Walsh's comments, the Bill has not been examined properly in the Dáil and the same is to be true of its passage through the Seanad. It is very difficult for us to explain to people why we have agreed to such legislation when we have had no opportunity to discuss it or to hear further arguments on points we wish to raise. It is regrettable and unhelpful to bring legislation before the Houses in this manner.
The asylum process is important and we do not wish to see it abused. However, we wish to ensure that the legislation we introduce is seen as fair by those seeking asylum. I am concerned by some of the amendments which have been made. The extension of the detention period from ten to 21 days in section 9 makes that period very long. A judge will not review the legality of the detention during that time. No other European state has legislation of this sort as it is not considered best practice.
Having had dealings with many asylum seekers, it is a matter of grave concern to me that after seeing a commissioner a person can be deported within four working days. Many asylum seekers have fled persecution and torture. I presume the Minister has visited the residence on the North Circular Road for those who have been tortured abroad and spoken to those who are dealing with them. It is difficult to get full stories even after people have been staying at the centre for some time. Some have already been granted refugee status which is why I am extremely anxious about the speed with which deportation can take place.
Elsewhere, the Bill provides that an interpreter will be provided if one can be found. Amendment 15(ii)(2) provides that the commissioner shall, where necessary and possible, conduct an interview with the assistance of an interpreter. Unless the commissioner speaks many languages, it will be extraordinarily difficult to get much sense from the interview process. Surely, it is essential to ensure that the asylum seeker knows what is happening. This provision is extremely lax.
Amendment No. 17 to section 11B which addresses credibility is also of concern. The Minister must have spoken to people who have attempted to obtain asylum status in which case he will certainly be aware that one of the first things they are told is to get rid of false documents. Provisions in this regard are made under sections 11A and 11E. It is unfair to decide a person is manifestly unworthy of asylum due to lack of documents given that those fleeing countries in which they are being persecuted are unlikely to go to the border with their own passport. The provisions of this section are patently ridiculous.
I am very concerned about section 11B(c) which refers to applicants who have provided a full and true explanation as to how they arrived in the State. They will not give that information because it might put the lives of their family and goodness knows who else in danger. I am dismayed that this and the credibility of their case will be taken into account rather than the merits of their case. I cannot see how these measures will help to prevent the abuse of the asylum procedure. All they will do is put people more in terror of getting themselves into such a mess that they will be thrown out of the country.
Section 5 makes good allowances for children, and rightly so. However, I am concerned, especially in view of the recent case where a woman gave birth on the high seas, that a heavily pregnant woman should be given some consideration and that there should be discussion of her case with the health board. In the most recent case, the good actions and training of the employees on the ferries, the fact that there was a doctor on board and the fact that the woman was normal and healthy meant that she and her child were safely delivered. However, when a woman is obviously pregnant, she should not just be put on the boat and sent back. There should be some discussions with the health authorities about her. I was sorry to see what happened in the recent case.
The new concept of safe third countries is being introduced into the Bill. This was not included in the Bill as initiated. Countries which might be safe for me and the Minister might not be safe for other people. Sending people back to other Dublin Convention countries might not mean they will be deported to what the Minister and I would consider a safe third country. I have spoken about this issue previously in the House and given a number of examples. Some years ago, for example, I occasionally appealed on behalf of doctors from Iraq. One of them, a surgeon, had fled the Iraqi army because he was being asked to amputate the limbs of deserters. I was told that Iraq was a safe country to which he could return. Shortly afterwards, however, half of the world had to invade Iraq because it was so dreadful and had weapons of mass destruction which could be shot at us in 45 minutes.
Another case involved a woman, a midwife, from Nigeria, an area where sharia law is enforced. She had spoken out against female genital mutilation. I got as far as the appeals commission with her and was told it was perfectly safe for her to return to Nigeria, yet we are encouraged to write to the Nigerian ambassador to protest at the stoning to death of a young woman who has had a child outside matrimony. I do not know how safe it will be for a woman who spoke against female genital mutilation to return to Nigeria. She fled despite having a good job there. She has not been able to work in this country even though we are desperate to recruit midwives. She was at sister tutor level and I have attended lectures she has given.
What is a safe country for one person will not be for another. Look at the United States of America. If the Minister goes there, he will not be put in Guantanamo Bay, although I do not know about me. What happens in the case of somebody from Pakistan or Afghanistan seeking refugee status here? Would it be wise to send them back? How safe would those countries be for them? The Minister, alone, makes that decision, with a little assistance from his friend, the Minister for Foreign Affairs. That is not a good idea.
We should have debated this legislation in greater detail because it might have been possible to omit some of the provisions. It would have made the legislation easier to understand for the public. I am glad the Minister said foreigners are welcome here. If they were not, the health service would collapse and, possibly, much of the retail and hotel trade. We need to treat foreigners in this country well but this Bill does not appear to accord much respect to those who are in most need of being treated well in this country.
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